Are handheld GPSes becoming a defacto primary nav source?

try putting "VFR GPS" instead. Same results, except I've never gotten a complaint from FSS.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

"hnelson" wrote in message om...
I put "GPS" in the comment part of the flight plan and file /A. I have an
panel mount non-IFR GPS coupled to the autopilot.

I do the same and often get direct. However, FSS complains to no end when I do it.

-Robert

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--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
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"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...

I do the same and often get direct. However, FSS complains to no end when
I do it.


What's their beef?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net...
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...

I do the same and often get direct. However, FSS complains to no end when
I do it.


What's their beef?


They claim that the comment "VFR GPS" is not appropriate since you are
IFR (and I don't feel like playing educator to the FSS guys).
-Robert

(Paul Tomblin) wrote
It seems to me that they know we can't recieve that VOR, but as long as
we've got the GPS on board, it doesn't matter to them. I guess as far as
legalities go, we're just ded reckoning in the right general direction
until we pick up the VOR.

There are several separate issues at work here.

First off - there are no official, written rules as to what may be
used for enroute naviagation under IFR. As far as legalities go, you
are proceeding direct to the fix, as cleared, using a tuna sandwich,
tea leaves, handheld GPS, or whatever streamlined navigation technique
you prefer. Of course this is directly counter to the
(non-regulatory) AIM, so what we have in practice is a massive gray
area.

Second, the controller NEVER cares HOW you comply with your clearance,
merely that you DO comply with it. If he cleared you present position
direct to a fix, then as long as you proceed along the line between
that present position and the fix, he really couldn't care less how
you are doing it.

Third, you've nailed it. The handheld GPS has become a defacto
primary nav source. I don't know ANYONE who flies Part 91 IFR without
a GPS of some kind anymore, unless it's a training flight. Why would
you?

The fact is that a handheld GPS and a good set of batteries provide
the best possible protection against nav/electrical failure. That's
important when you have a non-redundant electrical system. The GPS
provides course guidance that's less affected by terrain than anything
you're likely to find in a GA aircraft. It's more accurate and
(unless we're talking about IFR-approved stuff that had to have the
user interface made FAA-compliant and thus defective) easier to use
than anything else in the airplane.

Controllers are not idiots - they've caught on. They realize that
virtually everyone can now go direct to any fix - and that means that
airplanes can be routed to bypass choke points like VOR's. Clearly
that improves safety. Just as clearly, insisting on following airways
because you lack 'approved' area nav is not in the interest of safety.

Michael

This week I did several IFR flights, some in IMC and most in VMC. On a
couple of those flights, ATC offered me direct to the next VOR after the
one I was navigating to, well before I could actually pick up the signal.
One time departing Rochester, they told me to go direct Elmira when I was
less than 500 feet off the ground and there are 2000 foot hills between me
and Elmira. So I turned to the approximate direction, and punched "GOTO"
on my handheld GPS, and followed the GPS's HSI until I climbed up high
enough to get a signal.

They don't offer a vector, or say "direct when able", they just say "05X,
go direct East Texas".

It seems to me that they know we can't recieve that VOR, but as long as
we've got the GPS on board, it doesn't matter to them. I guess as far as
legalities go, we're just ded reckoning in the right general direction
until we pick up the VOR.


An excellent thread, Paul.

It frightens me, though, that we must share clouds with some of the
off-target thinkers I've read here...

No Spam

I have a Turbo Arrow III and use a handheld garmin 295 in it, if I am told to
go direct to a VOR , I intercept the outbound course if I cant pick up the VOR
they are wanting me to go to. So far, I have not been told to go to a VOR I
couldnt receive without vectors. I use my GPS only as a means of verifying I
am doing the right things and for situational awreness. I try to use the VOR's
as much as possible without relying on the GPS, I get better training that way
and I dont get in that bad habit of taking shortcuts.
There wasn't any vor's you could intercept to get to the VOR they were sending
you to?



Paul Tomblin wrote:

This week I did several IFR flights, some in IMC and most in VMC. On a
couple of those flights, ATC offered me direct to the next VOR after the
one I was navigating to, well before I could actually pick up the signal.
One time departing Rochester, they told me to go direct Elmira when I was
less than 500 feet off the ground and there are 2000 foot hills between me
and Elmira. So I turned to the approximate direction, and punched "GOTO"
on my handheld GPS, and followed the GPS's HSI until I climbed up high
enough to get a signal.

They don't offer a vector, or say "direct when able", they just say "05X,
go direct East Texas".

It seems to me that they know we can't recieve that VOR, but as long as
we've got the GPS on board, it doesn't matter to them. I guess as far as
legalities go, we're just ded reckoning in the right general direction
until we pick up the VOR.

--
Paul Tomblin , not speaking for anybody
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; give him a freshly-
charged Electric Eel and chances are he won't bother you for anything
ever again. -- Tanuki

ok so this was offered to you, it was not a clearence.
Somewhere, somehow, I thought I had read it was a clearence you received.

These posts sometimes get morphed into all kinds of different directions and
the answer never actually given if an answer is available.
I have not received any thing like that here, the other day flying out of
phoenix I got vectors all the way to drake then was told to intercept V105
then as filed. You were comming out of Oshkosh right? I am sure they had
their hands full and offered it to you hoping you had the ability to go
direct. I am pretty sure more then half the pilots nowdays use some type of
GPS also -- But I could be wrong



Paul Tomblin wrote:

This week I did several IFR flights, some in IMC and most in VMC. On a
couple of those flights, ATC offered me direct to the next VOR after the
one I was navigating to, well before I could actually pick up the signal.
One time departing Rochester, they told me to go direct Elmira when I was
less than 500 feet off the ground and there are 2000 foot hills between me
and Elmira. So I turned to the approximate direction, and punched "GOTO"
on my handheld GPS, and followed the GPS's HSI until I climbed up high
enough to get a signal.

They don't offer a vector, or say "direct when able", they just say "05X,
go direct East Texas".

It seems to me that they know we can't recieve that VOR, but as long as
we've got the GPS on board, it doesn't matter to them. I guess as far as
legalities go, we're just ded reckoning in the right general direction
until we pick up the VOR.

--
Paul Tomblin , not speaking for anybody
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; give him a freshly-
charged Electric Eel and chances are he won't bother you for anything
ever again. -- Tanuki

In a previous article, jeff said:
ok so this was offered to you, it was not a clearence.
Somewhere, somehow, I thought I had read it was a clearence you received.

They didn't say "Go direct if able" or anything that would make me think
it was an offer, they said "Go direct ETX". (Or maybe it was "cleared
direct ETX")

then as filed. You were comming out of Oshkosh right? I am sure they had

Nope, I was leaving Rochester NY on a nice mostly VFR Sunday afternoon.


--
Paul Tomblin , not speaking for anybody
Either way, it'll remind the clued that there's only one letter
difference between 'turkey' and 'turnkey'.
-- Mike Andrews