A thousand incursions a year?

Earlier this evening I was watching the program "Discoveries
This Week" on the Science Channel. The first segment was about
the visual laser warning system being put in the ADIZ. All the
reported errors about the lasers I'm addressing in alt.lasers.

However, I wanted to mention here that some official involved in
the deomonstration flights to the media said that ADIZ incursions
are an almost daily occurence, saying that he thinks the actual
number is about a thousand per yer.

The blame is put on uneducated and uninformed pilots, which is
probably true.

But my point is, if there's a thousand incursions a year, what
does that say about the effectiveness and usefulness of the
ADIZ? My opinion is that it proves it's uselessness.

BTW, this program is repeated multiple times over the weekend
so if you get the channel you might be able to catch the show
yourself.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Blog: http://www.skywise711.com/Blog

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

The problem now is there are some Feds trying to use that data to
justify either expansion of the ADIZ AND FRZ, or banning GA altogether
from the NCR.

Now that some Congressmen have been inconvenienced by the "Godzilla
Attack" alert condition, there are talks of draconian fines.

Once again, no one has demonstrated the ADIZ is any more rational than
the 30-minute pee-in-your-pants rule that SECDHS (NOT TSA) requested
suspended...

In article ,
Skywise wrote:

But my point is, if there's a thousand incursions a year, what
does that say about the effectiveness and usefulness of the
ADIZ? My opinion is that it proves it's uselessness.

It would be interesting to know how many incurions occur in
each ADIZ that we have, as well as the total number of
flights operating in and around each ADIZ, including the
DC ADIZ. And for additional comparison, it would be useful
to know the same kind of info for other large restricted or
prohibited airspace. Then we could see whether incursions
are a particular problem with the DC ADIZ.

But the number of incursions with the DC ADIZ really doesn't
say much about the usefulness of the ADIZ. The whole point of
having the ADIZ is so that our Air Defense folks in the NCR can
distinquish friend from foe. From an Air Defense point of view
it would be easiest just to make the DC ADIZ one big prohibited
airspace without any aircraft allowed at all. This would allow them
to shoot at anything that flies.

I suspect your question is more about the actual need of the DC ADIZ.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:32:24 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote in
::

But the number of incursions with the DC ADIZ really doesn't
say much about the usefulness of the ADIZ.

Actually, it says volumes about the lack of necessity for the ADIZ.

The whole point of
having the ADIZ is so that our Air Defense folks in the NCR can
distinquish friend from foe.

How can you be so sure that the ADIZ isn't a typically poorly thought
out, airline industry inspired, TSA pseudo-security measure to provide
the public with tangible evidence that the TSA are earning their pay,
and the military with additional stateside operational duty?

From an Air Defense point of view it would be easiest just to make the
DC ADIZ one big prohibited airspace without any aircraft allowed at all.

So the DC ADIZ is not a sensible measure. But the airlines, airline
passengers, such as DC bureaucrats and congresspeople, have sufficient
political influence to impose this useless affront to private flyers.
And the news media are milking the public hysteria cash-cow at every
opportunity.

Larry Dighera wrote:

So the DC ADIZ is not a sensible measure. But the airlines, airline
passengers, such as DC bureaucrats and congresspeople, have sufficient
political influence to impose this useless affront to private flyers.

I'm largely with you but I just don't see this having to do anything
with the airlines. DCA was shut down for a long time after 9/11 which
damn near killed US Airways, among other things. This looks to me like
nothing more than a stupid internal bureaucracy at work.

-cwk.

wrote in message
oups.com...
So the DC ADIZ is not a sensible measure. But the airlines, airline
passengers, such as DC bureaucrats and congresspeople, have sufficient
political influence to impose this useless affront to private flyers.

I'm largely with you but I just don't see this having to do anything
with the airlines. DCA was shut down for a long time after 9/11 which
damn near killed US Airways, among other things.

Who then partook in a major boondoggle of a free money grant, plus matching
easy loans from the US government. Compared to the shutdowns and
restrictions non-airlines have suffered, even the DCA closure was
inconsequential, and the affected airlines were compensated, far beyond what
was necessary IMHO.

This looks to me like
nothing more than a stupid internal bureaucracy at work.

IMHO, it's clear that the airlines have wielded considerable political clout
to ensure their unfettered access to the airspace around DC, and quite
possibly could have used that clout to as well suppress non-airline flight.
They probably were aiming primarily at business jet traffic (since that's
their main competition), not caring (or possibly not even thinking about)
that even smaller aircraft are affected as much or more.

Of course, like practically everyone else, the airlines are incredibly
short-sighted, believing that suppression of all other aviation in favor of
themselves will be good for them. But in the long run, a healthy aviation
industry requires a broad spectrum of uses. An industry made of only
airlines is unlikely to prosper at all, and any significant disruption could
eliminate it all together. Diversity is the best way to protect the
industry, and right now that diversity is severely threatened.

Pete

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

How can you be so sure that the ADIZ isn't a typically poorly thought
out, airline industry inspired, TSA pseudo-security measure to provide
the public with tangible evidence that the TSA are earning their pay,
and the military with additional stateside operational duty?

1) the DC ADIZ isn't new is it? It isn't the only ADIZ, is it?

2) Given that I've worked on USAF Air Defense systems, including
stuff in the NCR, I better know the purpose of the DC ADIZ.

And note that I've never ever said having an ADIZ over/around
DC is necessary.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
1) the DC ADIZ isn't new is it? It isn't the only ADIZ, is it?

It's not actually an ADIZ. It has the same name, using the same acronym,
but the rules are substantially different from the true ADIZ airspace.

2) Given that I've worked on USAF Air Defense systems, including
stuff in the NCR, I better know the purpose of the DC ADIZ.

Okay. So, do you? Know the purpose of the DC ADIZ, that is.

And note that I've never ever said having an ADIZ over/around
DC is necessary.

That's a relief.

Pete

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:29:41 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::

do you? Know the purpose of the DC ADIZ

My guess at the ostensible purpose of the DC ADIZ would be, to provide
uncluttered buffer space from the ground based missile batteries
(located at its center within the FRZ) in which to determine if the
aircraft in violation of the ADIZ regulations is friend or foe before
needlessly shooting down innocent citizens.

Anyone who knows anything about security, knows that only completely
locked (and thus unusable) systems are even remotely invulnerable.
While possibly attempted with the best of intentions, the security
measures implemented since September 11, 2001 only serve to confound
those with no criminal intent, and bear piteous testament to the
impossibility of securing a free populace.

In article ,
"Peter Duniho" wrote:

2) Given that I've worked on USAF Air Defense systems, including
stuff in the NCR, I better know the purpose of the DC ADIZ.

Okay. So, do you? Know the purpose of the DC ADIZ, that is.

yep. Already said it a couple of posts ago. That's not to say there
aren't side effects or that it is properly set up for its purpose.
But it's there to help the air defense folks responsible for the NCR
separate friend from foe.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule