737 off runway, Pearson Toronto

Maule Driver wrote:
That was interesting. Hearing the use of "pan pan" makes me wonder, "is
there a hassle factor involved with diverting internationally (for the
scheduleds)"? I can almost hear the crew, coming up with a solution to
their low fuel then, seeing it required a US landing, deciding to add
the "pan pan" to their low fuel to ensure desired handling.

AFAIK planes flying from the Northeast US to points West often transit
through Canadian airspace up around Toronto so I would think that the
controllers up there (Toronto/Detroit area) have no difficulty
coordinating. I'm not familiar with the use of the p-word in aviation
but from my maritime experience I recall it as being shorthand for
saying, "If you don't help me right now, this can turn into a Mayday
situation." That would seem relevant here where you might have someone
who is trying to cut through traffic on freq. It also seems to me
sometimes that the US has more idiosyncratic aviation phraseology while
other parts of the world hew closer to maritime language. Does "minimum
fuel" mean the same thing in Europe that it does here?

-cwk.

wrote:

, "If you don't help me right now, this can turn into a Mayday
situation." That would seem relevant here where you might have someone
who is trying to cut through traffic on freq. It also seems to me
sometimes that the US has more idiosyncratic aviation phraseology while
other parts of the world hew closer to maritime language. Does "minimum
fuel" mean the same thing in Europe that it does here?

What is interesting in the case of the KLM aircraft is that the pilot first
stated PAN-PAN, then continued by saying "Low fuel emergency."

Wouldn't the inclusion of the word "emergency" be the same as a pilot
stating "I am declaring an emergency" and therefore be handled by ATC as an
emergency?

It seemed to me that the subsequent exchange by the KLM pilot and ATC
didn't sound as if the situation was being treated as an emergency. For
example, the KLM pilot was requesting, not stating his intentions, and at
one point the KLM pilot was declined either an altitude or heading due to
nearby traffic, which I would have expected would have been moved out of
the way by then.


--
Peter

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
What is interesting in the case of the KLM aircraft is that the pilot
first
stated PAN-PAN, then continued by saying "Low fuel emergency."

Wouldn't the inclusion of the word "emergency" be the same as a pilot
stating "I am declaring an emergency" and therefore be handled by ATC as
an
emergency?

Saying "pan-pan" already declares an emergency. There are two levels of
emergency--urgency (pan-pan) and distress (mayday). (AIM 6-1-2a)

Gary Drescher wrote:

Saying "pan-pan" already declares an emergency.

I don't see the above fact mentioned in the AIM chapter you referenced.
Does PAN-PAN declare an emergency in US airspace as far as ATC is
concerned?



--
Peter
























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"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Gary Drescher wrote:

Saying "pan-pan" already declares an emergency.

I don't see the above fact mentioned in the AIM chapter you referenced.
Does PAN-PAN declare an emergency in US airspace as far as ATC is
concerned?

It was my understanding that a Pan gave you clear communications, by getting
all other calls on the freq. stopped. Close?
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
...
It was my understanding that a Pan gave you clear communications, by
getting
all other calls on the freq. stopped. Close?

Since "pan-pan" declares an emergency (specifically, an urgency condition),
others on the frequency will presumably have the good sense to yield, though
I'm not aware of any regulation that explicitly requires them to do so.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
"Morgans" wrote in message
...
It was my understanding that a Pan gave you clear communications, by
getting
all other calls on the freq. stopped. Close?

Since "pan-pan" declares an emergency (specifically, an urgency
condition), others on the frequency will presumably have the good sense to
yield, though I'm not aware of any regulation that explicitly requires
them to do so.

To follow up: although I still don't know of a corresponding regulation, AIM
6-3-1d does stipulate that distress calls have top priority, and urgency
calls have priority over everything but distress calls.

--Gary

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Gary Drescher wrote:

Saying "pan-pan" already declares an emergency.
There are two levels of emergency--urgency (pan-pan)
and distress (mayday). (AIM 6-1-2a)

I don't see the above fact mentioned in the AIM chapter you referenced.

AIM 6-1-2a discusses distress and urgency conditions. The Pilot/Controller
Glossary defines "mayday" and "pan-pan" (respectively) as signaling those
conditions.

Does PAN-PAN declare an emergency in US airspace as far
as ATC is concerned?

Yes, "mayday" and "pan-pan" are recognized internationally, according to the
Pilot/Controller Glossary.

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:

Peter Wrote:
Does PAN-PAN declare an emergency in US airspace as far
as ATC is concerned?

Yes, "mayday" and "pan-pan" are recognized internationally, according to the
Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Gary, that doesn't answer my question. Does ATC treat a PAN-PAN as an
emergency?


--
Peter

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Gary Drescher wrote:

Peter Wrote:
Does PAN-PAN declare an emergency in US airspace as far
as ATC is concerned?

Yes, "mayday" and "pan-pan" are recognized internationally, according to
the
Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Gary, that doesn't answer my question. Does ATC treat a PAN-PAN as an
emergency?

They do if their emergency procedures are consistent with the AIM and the
P/CG (and it would be surprising if their procedures were blatantly
inconsistent with those sources for something so basic and important).

According to AIM 6-1-2a, an urgency condition is an emergency. And according
to the P/CG and AIM 6-3-1c and 6-3-2a3a, "pan-pan" declares an urgency
condition to ATC in order to obtain emergency assistance.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/aim/index.htm

--Gary