Missed approach procedure...

"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message thlink.net...

I can't think of any missed that has very tricky routes

Check this one out.

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...st/SZT_ldA.pdf

The missed approach instructions read:

"MISSED APPROACH: Climb to 8000 to I-RPO 10 DME, then climbing right
turn via SZT bearing 030 degrees to SZT NDB, then via SZT bearing 181
degrees and COE R-359 to COE VOR/DME and hold." (And of course it's a
parallel entry!)

-Ryan

ArtP wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:17:04 -0800, wrote:

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.

That is wrong.

You are right. I looked at the plate again and the description
disagrees with the little symbols in the profile. The descriptions has
an "and" in it while the symbols show two separate operations. In
other plates (RWI VOR/DME 22) a climb and an interception is shown in
a single symbol rather than two separate ones.

I've got both the Jepp and NACO charts for these two IAPs in hand. The
problem is that you were sandbagged by incorrect NACO symbology. Jeppesen
has the symbology correct: Jepp shows an arrow to 3000', then in the next
box it says 245 heading, then between that box and the next box the word
"and" flows across, and that next box says OCN 115.3 R-145. NACO, as you
know, leads you down the primrose path.

Having said that, the symbols are subserviant to the written missed approach
text. The text is regulatory; the symbols are not. The chart makers have to
interpret the text to draft the symbology.

Moral to the story: understand the text first and foremost, then reconcile it
with the briefing symbology. If they agree, the symbology is then adequate
to use during the "heat of the battle," in lieu of the text.

wrote in message
...
Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

Had to look in the old logbook. Haven't flown there since 6/27/1974. Wonder
if it's changed much.


This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

You transcribed the meaning incorrectly. It says "Climb to 3000 via heading
245 and OCN R-145 to OCN VORTAC", which is, in essence, what I said I would
do. It doesn't say climb to 3000 on a heading of 245 and tben intercept. It
gives you a route (heading 245 and OCN R-145 to OCN) and an altitude
(3000')to climb to.



I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Gee, more of my old stomping grounds. I soloed at Chino on 1/16/1974.


Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.

This is also crystal clear and not at all similar. You climb to 1400 and
then continue a climb while turning direct to PDZ. There is no possibility
of overshooting a radial that needs to be intercepted.


Looking at the plate missed seems to be about 4 mi from PDZ.
DH is 836 so at 200ft /mi 1400 gets you to 6 mi from PDZ
Assume that the turn gives you another 200 ft thats 1600 and 6 miles
at 200 per nm that gets you to PDZ and 2800.

The missed specifies 4000

So keep climbing. Don't worry, SoCal Approach will be asking you about your
climb rate, and the initial climb to 1400 seems to be chosen to get you high
enough.


So what do you do hold at PDZ and climb to 4000?

Yep. Next time in your thought experiments, don't fly a C-150 under IFR with
full fuel and extra passengers in the baggage compartment and you'll climb
faster


Again in this specific case it looks like that would be safe.

yep!

cheers
-Greg

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:45:57 -0800, wrote:

Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

But it's also clear from the wording what you should do:

"Climb to 3000 via heading 245° *AND* OCN R-145 to OCN VORTAC"

I should say that it's clear to me g. Obviously it wasn't clear to you.

However, the sequence is that ATC gives you an altitude to climb to, and
then a route.

You fly 245 until you get to the R-145 and continue to climb on the R-145.

If they had wanted you to remain on the 245° heading until reaching 3000',
the wording would have been something like "Climb to 3000' via heading 245°
*then* via OCN R-145. If turn direction is important, it would be stated.



I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

That's a different issue.

You should ALWAYS be at or above the minimum charted altitude for any route
of flight. (There may be a few rare exceptions).

If you are on an unpublished route or being radar vectored, the pilot
responsibilities include:

"(a) Complies with the minimum altitude for IFR; and

"(b) Maintains the last assigned altitude until established on a segment of
a published route or IAP, at which time published altitudes apply. "

You must BURN that into your head. Commercial airliners used to be
confused about this, too.

ATC has restrictions on what they can do, also, but ATC can make mistakes.


I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.


Again, just follow the directions in sequence:

1. Climb to 1400' (straight ahead is implied since it is not stated)
2. *THEN* climbing left turn to 4000'

If you are not at 4000' by PDZ, you should climb in the hold.

However, under ordinary circumstances with a minimum ROC and beginning your
missed approach at the MM, you should be pretty close to 4000' at or before
PDZ.

Hope this helps to clarify things.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

There are no climb gradients on FAA missed approaches for public
procedures except for Burbank, California. They are evaluated for a 40:1
clear surface from (typcially) 250 feet below MDA to not less than 1,000
feet below the final missed approach altitude. Hopefully, you can climb a
lot better than 40:1 (152 feet per n.m.)

If no fix is specified you turn when you reach any specified intermediate
turning altitude. It's protected for the worst climber (152 feet per
mile) to an F-18. If there is a turn fix specified, you keep climbing
(assuming you're out climbing a 40:1 slope) but you don't turn until the
specified fix.

With the KCNO ILS you turn as soon as you get to 1,400 feet assuming you
are past the MAP. If you miss early you don't turn until the MAP but you
can keep climbing towards 4,000 feet. The missed approach hold is shown
in the plan view as right turns on the PDZ 078 radial. If you're a slow
climber and you reach PDZ below 4,000 feet you continue the climb in the
hold to 4,000.

At KCRQ you climb on heading 245 until you intercept the Oceanside 145
radial (325 inbound). Whether you reach 3,000 before or after
intercepting the 145 radial is irrelevant, you intercept the radial at
3,000 level, or climbing to 3,000.

wrote:

Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.

Looking at the plate missed seems to be about 4 mi from PDZ.
DH is 836 so at 200ft /mi 1400 gets you to 6 mi from PDZ
Assume that the turn gives you another 200 ft thats 1600 and 6 miles
at 200 per nm that gets you to PDZ and 2800.

The missed specifies 4000

So what do you do hold at PDZ and climb to 4000?

Again in this specific case it looks like that would be safe.

When we build a missed approach procedure, we determine where we want
the missed approach to go. If that route encounters an obstacle, then we
have to create a "climb to" altitude before the turn can be made toward
the obstacle. In that example, it would be "Climb via 270 heading to
2000, then right climbing turn to 4000 direct XXX VOR and hold.

If obstacles weren't a factor, but we had a specific route designed to
avoid obstacles or airspace, then it would read "Climb to 4000 via 270
heading and XXX VOR R-210 to XXX VOR and hold". In this case, you
wouldn't wait until reaching 4000 to turn; you would fly a heading until
the specified radial, turn to that radial, and climb while on the route,
reaching 4000 either while on the heading or on the specified radial,
depending on aircraft performance.

For the example of reaching the missed approach holding pattern before
reaching the specified altitude, you would perform a climb in hold at
the holding fix until reaching the specified altitude or received a
clearance beyond the fix. Incidentally, we evaluate the climb based on
200' per NM, and if that climb doesn't reach the specified altitude by
the time you get to the fix, we're required to develop a "climb in hold"
pattern at the holding fix. This is transparent to the pilot, but
requires the procedure specialist to use a 310 knot holding pattern
template to search for obstacles, instead of the normal GA pattern of
200 or 230 knots. This gives extra obstacle protection during your climb.

wrote:
Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.


Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.

Looking at the plate missed seems to be about 4 mi from PDZ.
DH is 836 so at 200ft /mi 1400 gets you to 6 mi from PDZ
Assume that the turn gives you another 200 ft thats 1600 and 6 miles
at 200 per nm that gets you to PDZ and 2800.

The missed specifies 4000

So what do you do hold at PDZ and climb to 4000?

Again in this specific case it looks like that would be safe.