FLAPS

I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.

"skysailor" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.


I'm assuming that your question is about a glider equipped with performance
flaps AND spoilers. I'd suggest that if you can find a Lark IS28 b2 that
you can get a ride in, that might answer your question. The Lark flaps work
pretty much like they all do. In other words, no problemo.

My first flight in a flapped glider (A Diamant) was at about the same number
of hours you have and I had no problem with it. In fact, it was a blast to
fly.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:
"skysailor" wrote in message

I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.

I'm assuming that your question is about a glider equipped with performance
flaps AND spoilers. I'd suggest that if you can find a Lark IS28 b2 that
you can get a ride in, that might answer your question. The Lark flaps work
pretty much like they all do. In other words, no problemo.

My first flight in a flapped glider (A Diamant) was at about the same number
of hours you have and I had no problem with it. In fact, it was a blast to
fly.

Bill Daniels

My first flight in a flapped glider (LS3) was with 30 hours in gliders,
and no previous flying experience of any type. No problem.

My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No problems
at all.

I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and shorter
landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy when you
land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country and facing
limited landout options.

-ted/2NO

"skysailor" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.

"Ted Wagner" wrote in message
news:1124852672.6a09312da6ceee89f29b6a8aae6c53b4@t eranews...
My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No
problems at all.

I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and
shorter landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy
when you land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country
and facing limited landout options.

-ted/2NO

I agree with the idea of flaps not being a reason to limit your first glider
purchase. However I don't agree with the old wives tale of flapped gliders
being safer due to their much slower landing speeds and therefore shorter
stopping distances. An appropriately flown approach and touchdown with a
modern standard class glider against the same in a 15 meter ship shows that
they touch down at basically the same speed and stop in the same distance.
What is much more important but gets less press is what kind of brakes you
have and if they work well.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

"old wives tale."



Now this is going to be a fun thread to watch for a while! :-)



Larry Goddard

01 "Zero One"





"Kilo Charlie" NOSPAMkilocharlie.cox.net wrote in message
news:mpSOe.124815$E95.33431@fed1read01:

"Ted Wagner" wrote in message
news:1124852672.6a09312da6ceee89f29b6a8aae6c53b4@t eranews...
My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No
problems at all.

I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and
shorter landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy
when you land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country
and facing limited landout options.

-ted/2NO

I agree with the idea of flaps not being a reason to limit your first glider
purchase. However I don't agree with the old wives tale of flapped gliders
being safer due to their much slower landing speeds and therefore shorter
stopping distances. An appropriately flown approach and touchdown with a
modern standard class glider against the same in a 15 meter ship shows that
they touch down at basically the same speed and stop in the same distance.
What is much more important but gets less press is what kind of brakes you
have and if they work well.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

"old wives tale."



Now this is going to be a fun thread to watch for a while! :-)



Larry Goddard

01 "Zero One"







"Kilo Charlie" NOSPAMkilocharlie.cox.net wrote in message
news:mpSOe.124815$E95.33431@fed1read01:

"Ted Wagner" wrote in message
news:1124852672.6a09312da6ceee89f29b6a8aae6c53b4@t eranews...
My first glider was a 304CZ (flapped) when I had about 30 hours. No
problems at all.

I much prefer flapped gliders because of the higher performance, and
shorter landing field requirements -- 10 knots, give or take, less energy
when you land. I think that's pretty significant when flying cross-country
and facing limited landout options.

-ted/2NO

I agree with the idea of flaps not being a reason to limit your first glider
purchase. However I don't agree with the old wives tale of flapped gliders
being safer due to their much slower landing speeds and therefore shorter
stopping distances. An appropriately flown approach and touchdown with a
modern standard class glider against the same in a 15 meter ship shows that
they touch down at basically the same speed and stop in the same distance.
What is much more important but gets less press is what kind of brakes you
have and if they work well.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Some flapped gliders benefit from using 0 or negative flap during the
initial part of the takeoff, a slightly higher pilot load.
Dumping or retracting flap in the late part of a landing can result in
a rapid loss of lift and resultant heavy or worse 'arrivals'.
Most gliders spin / stall charecteristics change depending on flap
setting.
Spin recovery procedure may involve flap setting.

Now what will another 1, 2 or 500 hours in unflapped gliders teach you
about all of that? Very little if anything but it may make your CFI
more confident in your workload handling capacity.
My suggestion, get some dual time, a couple of hours at least, in a
flapped 2 seater, ( IS28, Janus, Nimbus 3d whatever ) and then get the
instructor to give you an honest assesment of YOUR capabilities.

Some pilots can handle the load with 30 hours, some with a hundred
hours and some pilots are so far behind the aircraft they never will.
Its your personal capabilities that matter, there is no prescribed
point in a logbook that suddenly makes you capable of something.

Ian

I pretty much agree with KC but with one small difference. Some of the
flapped ships like the '20 have true landing flap positions. These
gliders can be landed much shorter than the Standard class ships while
maintaining equivilent safety margins.
They do require a bit more technique to get the maximium benefit. Until
those skills are developed, you just put the flaps in thermal flap
position and it will land pretty much like a standard class ship.
After mastering the glider in basic mode, the skills of using the
benefits of the flaps for better landing performance can be learned.
I can get my '27 in a much smaller place than my '28.
KC is very much right on the brake.
Good luck UH

Casey is correct - a lot depends on the glider. My flapped LS6
approaches and lands at very similar speeds to Casey's LS8 (no big
surprise there). On the other hand, the Pik-20B that I occasionally
fly approaches a LOT slower and can be stopped a lot sooner than my
LS6. Lower wing loading has something to do with it, but the nature of
90 degree flaps means a slower approach is usually possible.

I like them both - and there have been times I wished my -6 had 90
degree flaps on approach! (or at least a real brake...).

LS brakes, on the other hand...Hideous small Tost drum "emergency"
brake actuated via the rudder pedals. That design task must have been
fobbed off on the newest apprentice at the LS factory. Not only does
it not provide any reassuring retardation (especially landing with no
wind - or worse still, full of water), but it's almost impossible to
steer and brake at the same time.

Kirk
66