Badges ? ... We don't need no stinkin' badges

Give that man a free $100 tow.

With Humphrey Bogart. Great dark movie about human greed.

- John

ContestID67 wrote:
Quick - where did the line "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!"
come from?


Mel Brooks "Blazing Saddles"

Tony V.

First known usage:

Treasure of the Sierra Madre (1948)

Gold Hat (Mexican): "Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no
badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges."

Mike

Tony Verhulst wrote:
ContestID67 wrote:
Quick - where did the line "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!"
come from?


Mel Brooks "Blazing Saddles"

Tony V.

Don't be misleading.

If someone tries to claim a badge using an EW and a
'mouse type GPS' it will be rejected. The IGC approval
of the EW barographs requires the use of a GPS off
an approved list. The approved list GPS's output a
proprietary NMEA sentence for selected map datum which
is recorded by the logger to stop people displacing
turnpoints by changing map datum in flight.

I'm not saying this is the way it should be, there
is an argument for COTS loggers, but this is the way
it is, you can't claim a badge with an EW and just
any old GPS.

At 08:54 16 September 2005, Jancsika wrote:
ttaylor at cc.usu.edu wrote:


I have old cameras you can have if you want them and
I have an EW-D
logger you can barrow if you would like to try some
badge flights. All
you need is a Garmin GPS to feed a signal to it.

Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc
file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year.
Few enthusiastic
pilot joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but nothing
has changed so
far

/Janos

Hehe, if there is no datum change from the GPS (like in case of most
of the mouse type GPS) the final igc file will be the same as if it were
from an approved Garmin. This is what I said. Yes, it's against the
current rules, but who cares. Let's have their fun with the valid igc file

/jancsika


Andrew Warbrick wrote:
Don't be misleading.

If someone tries to claim a badge using an EW and a
'mouse type GPS' it will be rejected. The IGC approval
of the EW barographs requires the use of a GPS off
an approved list. The approved list GPS's output a
proprietary NMEA sentence for selected map datum which
is recorded by the logger to stop people displacing
turnpoints by changing map datum in flight.

I'm not saying this is the way it should be, there
is an argument for COTS loggers, but this is the way
it is, you can't claim a badge with an EW and just
any old GPS.

At 08:54 16 September 2005, Jancsika wrote:

ttaylor at cc.usu.edu wrote:


I have old cameras you can have if you want them and
I have an EW-D
logger you can barrow if you would like to try some
badge flights. All
you need is a Garmin GPS to feed a signal to it.

Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc
file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year.
Few enthusiastic
pilot joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but nothing
has changed so
far

/Janos

I realise you are just trying to recruit disgruntled
pilots to the COTS cause. They will be disgruntled
because their NAC will have rejected their claim.

I'll say it again, clearer this time and using shorter
words. The EW will log with any GPS but it will only
make an IGC file valid for a badge claim with one of
the approved GPS's, your NAC will reject a claim made
with an EW and any non approved GPS. You could, in
theory, build a circuit to inject valid datum sentences
into the EW, but any OO who let you get away with it
shouldn't be an OO and it's more effort than just using
an approved GPS.

At 10:24 16 September 2005, Jancsika wrote:

Hehe, if there is no datum change from the GPS (like
in case of most
of the mouse type GPS) the final igc file will be the
same as if it were
from an approved Garmin. This is what I said. Yes,
it's against the
current rules, but who cares. Let's have their fun
with the valid igc file

/jancsika


Andrew Warbrick wrote:
Don't be misleading.

If someone tries to claim a badge using an EW and
a
'mouse type GPS' it will be rejected. The IGC approval
of the EW barographs requires the use of a GPS off
an approved list. The approved list GPS's output a
proprietary NMEA sentence for selected map datum which
is recorded by the logger to stop people displacing
turnpoints by changing map datum in flight.

I'm not saying this is the way it should be, there
is an argument for COTS loggers, but this is the way
it is, you can't claim a badge with an EW and just
any old GPS.

At 08:54 16 September 2005, Jancsika wrote:

ttaylor at cc.usu.edu wrote:


I have old cameras you can have if you want them and
I have an EW-D
logger you can barrow if you would like to try some
badge flights. All
you need is a Garmin GPS to feed a signal to it.

Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc
file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year.
Few enthusiastic
pilot joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but nothing
has changed so
far

/Janos

Andrew Warbrick wrote:
I realise you are just trying to recruit disgruntled
pilots to the COTS cause. They will be disgruntled
because their NAC will have rejected their claim.

You are right more or less I do hate that we have to buy an
(otherwise fantastic) expensive tool for this purpose.

I'll say it again, clearer this time and using shorter
words. The EW will log with any GPS but it will only
make an IGC file valid for a badge claim with one of
the approved GPS's, your NAC will reject a claim made
with an EW and any non approved GPS. You could, in
theory, build a circuit to inject valid datum sentences
into the EW, but any OO who let you get away with it
shouldn't be an OO and it's more effort than just using
an approved GPS.


No, EW WILL create valid IGC file with any GPS provides (RMC, GGA)
NMEA sentences at 4800. EW could recognize if there is a change in datum
if you use a garmin, because garmin sends this information inside NMEA.
I can send samples if you need.
There is no need to create any special circuit.
And I think at least 99% of the OO will accept it.

/jancsika (finally a Colibri user)

At 06:24 20 September 2005, Jancsika wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:

Jancsika wrote:

Or any other cheap mouse type GPS. The final igc
file will be fine
This badge&cheap GPS issue come up year by year.
Few enthusiastic
pilot joined and created COTS proposal to IGC but
nothing has
changed so far




Like it, or not, if one wants to get a badge with
an EW, one must use
one of the Garmin GPS units listed in the approval
document...

Marc



It's just funny to see the weakness of the system...


It's my understanding the IGC file will NOT be fine
if a mouse type GPS
is used, because it will be missing the NMEA sentence
with the datum
that is in use. With a Garmin GPS, the sentence is
not sent only when
the datum is changed, but with every data point.

I also suspect the Garmin GPS sends a sentence identifying
itself, which
is recorded in the file, but I don't know that for
sure. Perhaps Marc or
other knowledgeable person can comment?



At startup some GPS sends (even a cheap mouse type
could do it) this
data but to get a valid IGC file boot messages doesn't
have to be in the
NMEA stream. I sent you one example (Vali-ewa.exe validated
this).
Regards,

/Janos


Here we go again. Vali-ewa.exe only checks the hash
of the file against the G line, if there are no datum
records in the file your OO or the NAC's badge secretary
should reject the claim.

Andrew Warbrick

Here we go again. Vali-ewa.exe only checks the hash
of the file against the G line, if there are no datum
records in the file your OO or the NAC's badge secretary
should reject the claim.


Hmm, and why does it print this info same cases?

"The following fixes are not recorded as being relative to the WGS84
geodetic datum. Care should be taken that these fixes are not used
to validate the flight.

22 fixes from 05-04-04 11:22:59 UTC to 05-04-04 11:24:02 UTC inclusive.

EW Flight Recorder security checks indicate file '544E7AM3.igc' is VALID."

At 08:36 20 September 2005, Jancsika wrote:
Andrew Warbrick

Here we go again. Vali-ewa.exe only checks the hash
of the file against the G line, if there are no datum
records in the file your OO or the NAC's badge secretary
should reject the claim.


Hmm, and why does it print this info same cases?

'The following fixes are not recorded as being relative
to the WGS84
geodetic datum. Care should be taken that these fixes
are not used
to validate the flight.

22 fixes from 05-04-04 11:22:59 UTC to 05-04-04
11:24:02 UTC inclusive.

EW Flight Recorder security checks indicate file '544E7AM3.igc'
is VALID.'

That's interesting, it would appear I was wrong. Are
you saying that file was generated with a 'mouse GPS'
and contains more than 22 fixes?

I was under the impression the datum record would only
be generated by Garmin's proprietary PGRMM sentence.
My 'mouse GPS', based on the SiRF chipset definitely
can't output this sentence.

I'm afraid I can't do any testing, as I haven't owned
an EW for nearly four years now. If you've got sample
files, feel free to send me a copy (I do have some
old files generated with an IGC upgraded EW model B
and a GPS from the approved list).