The Instrument you can live without

The VSI only lags in giving a RATE of climb/descent. In smooth air, or
smooth pilot inputs, the VSI will give nearly immediate response up or
down.
I could live without the VSI, or the AI, or DG, and make do with the
rest of them and do a decent approach. I began teaching what I call
"Primitive Panel" over 30 years ago with a loss of gyros, then taking
away the Turn/Slip, the VSI, and leaving the student with little to
work with. They can do fine if they use their heads. Too many times in
over a thousand hours of actual IFR I've seen gyros fail as well as
other instruments and you had to extrapolate all the available
information. So far so good......
Ol Shy & Bashful

wrote:

I could live without the VSI, or the AI, or DG, and make do with the
rest of them and do a decent approach. I began teaching what I call
"Primitive Panel" over 30 years ago with a loss of gyros, then taking
away the Turn/Slip, the VSI, and leaving the student with little to
work with. They can do fine if they use their heads. Too many times in

During my IFR instruction my CFII allowed me to see the AI maybe one
out of ten hours. It actually felt weird when he let me see it. I could
take it or leave it for the most part until we get into unusual
attitudes. I'd like to think I could keep my grip long enough to figure
it out partial panel, but I know I can make sense of the situation a
lot faster with an AI.

-cwk.

wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

During my IFR instruction my CFII allowed me to see the AI maybe one
out of ten hours. It actually felt weird when he let me see it. I could
take it or leave it for the most part until we get into unusual
attitudes. I'd like to think I could keep my grip long enough to figure
it out partial panel, but I know I can make sense of the situation a
lot faster with an AI.

-cwk.


Hmmm,
I was taught to initially only use the ASI & TC to get to straight & level
from an upset/unusual attitude. Was I taught wrong?

Marty

Marty wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

During my IFR instruction my CFII allowed me to see the AI maybe one
out of ten hours. It actually felt weird when he let me see it. I could
take it or leave it for the most part until we get into unusual
attitudes. I'd like to think I could keep my grip long enough to figure
it out partial panel, but I know I can make sense of the situation a
lot faster with an AI.

-cwk.



Hmmm,
I was taught to initially only use the ASI & TC to get to straight & level
from an upset/unusual attitude. Was I taught wrong?

I'd say yes. I was taught to use all available information. AI first
to get the right attitude and then cross check ASI, TC, VSI, etc., to be
sure that the AI wasn't lying. Keep in mind that although usually quite
reliable, the TC isn't failure proof nor is the ASI! Actually, the club
Arrow that I now fly just had the TC fail and we're awaiting a new one.
I'd say if you were taught to do anything important based on only one
set of data, when other sets are available, then you were taught wrong.


Matt

I began teaching what I call
"Primitive Panel" over 30 years ago with a loss of gyros, then taking
away the Turn/Slip, the VSI, and leaving the student with little to
work with. They can do fine if they use their heads.

A couple of years ago,a high-time pilot who, according to reports,
emphasized partial panel work, took off from TEB and soon killed
himself and family in a Bonanza. Apparently a gyro failure.

Have you any words of explanation to offer, or do you know what the
accident report said?

I practice partial panel regularly, but accidents like that worry me;
if that guy couldn't hack it, could I?

vince norris

vincent p. norris wrote:

A couple of years ago,a high-time pilot who, according to reports,
emphasized partial panel work, took off from TEB and soon killed
himself and family in a Bonanza. Apparently a gyro failure.

The only Bonanza accident at TEB that I remember in the last 5 years or so
involved a doctor who was taking proscribed medication and had been for some
time. After the failure, he couldn't seem to follow ATC's instructions -- just
kept repeating that he was in trouble. Wound up putting it into an urban area
and killing a few people on the ground.

If that's the one you're thinking of, it wouldn't be a good case for arguing a
stand on any partial panel situation. Seems to me the most important instrument
that failed was the pilot's brain, and that had been running on partial panel
for years.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

A couple of years ago,a high-time pilot who, according to reports,
emphasized partial panel work, took off from TEB and soon killed
himself and family in a Bonanza. Apparently a gyro failure.

The only Bonanza accident at TEB that I remember in the last 5 years or so
involved a doctor who was taking proscribed medication and had been for some
time. After the failure, he couldn't seem to follow ATC's instructions -- just
kept repeating that he was in trouble. Wound up putting it into an urban area
and killing a few people on the ground.

If that's the one you're thinking of.....

Yes, that's the one. Is there an accident report on the net?

vince norris

vincent p. norris wrote:

Yes, that's the one. Is there an accident report on the net?

I'm sure there is, but I don't know where. I saw reports in the local Star
Ledger and (of course) here.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

I'd like to hear from a current or recent USAF UPT or lead-in T-38 IP.

What are the redundant display systems in this airplane and what is
taught as anticipated failure modes?

I've long believed that simply having some vacuum and some electric
instruments is not enough. You need dual redundant vacuum with
automatic switchover and redundant electrics.

vincent p. norris wrote:

A couple of years ago,a high-time pilot who, according to reports,
emphasized partial panel work, took off from TEB and soon killed
himself and family in a Bonanza. Apparently a gyro failure.

Have you any words of explanation to offer, or do you know what the
accident report said?

The problem with a gyro failure isn't flying the plane without your gyro
instruments, but recognizing the failure in the first place. I would
guess that most crashes caused by failed gyros were because the pilot
didn't recognize the failure.

A failed gyro can be very difficult to detect. I've done it in a
simulator and didn't notice for a several minutes. For people who focus
too much on the AI, it's especially bad because they can end up putting
the plane in an unusual attitude very quickly.


-m
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