Unclear Clearance

On 11/16/2005 10:57 AM, three-eight-hotel wrote the following:
Have you considered making a phone call to the controlling facility and
getting there feedback on this clearance and any expectations they
might have had?


Actually, it wasn't that big a deal. I just thought I'd
throw a little meat to the wolves. I was and am tired of
all the bickering under "IFR with a VFR GPS." :-) So ...
something new.

I'm a relatively new IFR pilot and don't get as much practice as I
would like. It's a frustrating feeling, to have been given a
clearance, and try decipher all that you can and cannot do because the
clearance was a little vague. You definitely did the right thing,
asking for clarification.

The part I'm a little unclear on is: "Center, that 4000 was pilot's
discretion, right?" ...... "Right."

How is that different from a cruise clearance? Is it because you are
cleared to decend to 4000 at your discretion, but once you leave the
altitude you can't go back, unless cleared to climb again?

Yes, I think so. But as a practical matter she was about to
lose me both on radar and on comm, so I think she was
effectively giving me the airspace below 7 until she
received my cancellation. I'm sure she didn't have any IFR
aircraft anywhere near me and didn't have any departures
coming out of KCKC.

These groups are great for getting clarification on things we encounter
in the air, but they aren't of much use when you are at 7000 feet and
concerned about picking up a little ice... ;-)

I was in the clear and the deck was thin. No real concern,
but that's why I asked for clarification.

While flying at 3000 ft, I get a clearance that says "maintain 3000
until established on the localizer, cleared ILS...." If I am already
at 3000, what exactly is the purpose of "maintain 3000"?

The purpose of the "maintain 3000" is to caution the pilot that the
approach clearance does not imply that he can start descending right
away.

In this context, I take the "maintain 3000 until established" to mean
"maintain at least 3000 until establshed".

If it were an instruction to descend, it would have been issued as
"descend and maintain".

While flying at 3000 ft, I get a clearance that says "maintain 3000
until established on the localizer, cleared ILS...." If I am already
at 3000, what exactly is the purpose of "maintain 3000"?

The purpose of the "maintain 3000" is to caution the pilot that the
approach clearance does not imply that he can start descending right
away.

In this context, I take the "maintain 3000 until established" to mean
"maintain at least 3000 until establshed".

If it were an instruction to descend, it would have been issued as
"descend and maintain".

"Maintain" means "don't go higher or lower. There may be terrain lower.
There may be traffic higher.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On 24 Nov 2005 07:19:39 -0800, "Andrew Sarangan"
wrote:

While flying at 3000 ft, I get a clearance that says "maintain 3000
until established on the localizer, cleared ILS...." If I am already
at 3000, what exactly is the purpose of "maintain 3000"?

The purpose of the "maintain 3000" is to caution the pilot that the
approach clearance does not imply that he can start descending right
away.

In this context, I take the "maintain 3000 until established" to mean
"maintain at least 3000 until establshed".

If it were an instruction to descend, it would have been issued as
"descend and maintain".

Another way of thinking of about it would be a clearance that says,
"Descend to and maintain 3000 until established, cleared for the
approach."

Maintain 3000 until established is what you get when you are alread at
the altitude ATC wans.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Actually, "maintain 3000 until established" is what you get even if
you are at a different altitude. This is the cause of the confusion, as
the original poster to this thread mentioned.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...

While flying at 3000 ft, I get a clearance that says "maintain 3000
until established on the localizer, cleared ILS...." If I am already
at 3000, what exactly is the purpose of "maintain 3000"?


To ensure you do not descend below 3000 before you intercept the localizer.



The purpose of the "maintain 3000" is to caution the pilot that the
approach clearance does not imply that he can start descending right
away.

In this context, I take the "maintain 3000 until established" to mean
"maintain at least 3000 until establshed".


So you can climb above 3000? Nope, it means just what it says, 3000 until
established, no more and no less.