floatplane - taking off frozen lake

"Lets Fly" wrote in message
...
heres a video i figured some would enjoy

float plane taking off from a semi-frozen lake in alaska

http://media.putfile.com/Seaplane---...-Bethel-Alaska

Would puncturing a float be a concern when it comes to ice?

Jay Beckman

A punctured float is always a concern, but slush isn't likely to puncture a
float; it just makes a ton of drag.

My buddy Buzz Fiorini used to fly his C180 floatplane over to Sun Valley and
land on a snow-packed meadow. Did it regularly, for years, with no damage.

May have put ski wax on his floats.

Seth

"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
newsd9lf.11192$Wu.3984@fed1read05...
"Lets Fly" wrote in message
...
heres a video i figured some would enjoy

float plane taking off from a semi-frozen lake in alaska

http://media.putfile.com/Seaplane---...-Bethel-Alaska

Would puncturing a float be a concern when it comes to ice?

Jay Beckman

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:50:29 -0800, "Seth Masia"
wrote:

My buddy Buzz Fiorini used to fly his C180 floatplane over to Sun Valley and
land on a snow-packed meadow. Did it regularly, for years, with no damage.

During WWII in a whiteout, a PBY Catalina was flying over the
Greenland ice cap at 10,000-plus feet when the crew realized that
though the engines were developing full revs, the plane wasn't moving
any longer. They'd landed on the snow. They piled out and ran around,
laughing. Then they realized that, no, they weren't going to take off
again.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

The Helio Aircraft Co. at Pittsburg, KS operated straight
float equipped Helio H-295 Couriers from the grass strip
behind the factory. They would land on dry grass but did
spray a little water on the grass in the area of the plane
to let it start to slide. The landing was tricky only
because there was not suspension.

The Helio was unusual and could fly at gross (3,400 pounds)
at 28 mph.


"Cub Driver" usenet AT danford DOT net wrote in message
...
| On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:50:29 -0800, "Seth Masia"

| wrote:
|
| My buddy Buzz Fiorini used to fly his C180 floatplane
over to Sun Valley and
| land on a snow-packed meadow. Did it regularly, for
years, with no damage.
|
| During WWII in a whiteout, a PBY Catalina was flying over
the
| Greenland ice cap at 10,000-plus feet when the crew
realized that
| though the engines were developing full revs, the plane
wasn't moving
| any longer. They'd landed on the snow. They piled out and
ran around,
| laughing. Then they realized that, no, they weren't going
to take off
| again.
|
|
| -- all the best, Dan Ford
|
| email: usenet AT danford DOT net
|
| Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
| Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
| the blog: www.danford.net
| In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

Dan,

Actually the airplane that came to a stop in the whiteout over
Greenland was a B-17 (My Gal Sal). That began a very long rescue
effort (some months) in which a number of people died getting the crew
out.

What you may be recalling is that the legendary Bernt Balchen (first
person to pilot an aircraft over both poles, Byrd's pilot across the
Atlantic in 1927 and over the South Pole in 1929) landed a PBY, gear
up, on the ice pack a number of times during the rescue (he also
successfully took off). He also landed on a temporary lake that formed
on the ice pack due to melting ice.

All the best,
Rick

Cub Driver wrote:
On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:50:29 -0800, "Seth Masia"
wrote:

My buddy Buzz Fiorini used to fly his C180 floatplane over to Sun Valley and
land on a snow-packed meadow. Did it regularly, for years, with no damage.

During WWII in a whiteout, a PBY Catalina was flying over the
Greenland ice cap at 10,000-plus feet when the crew realized that
though the engines were developing full revs, the plane wasn't moving
any longer. They'd landed on the snow. They piled out and ran around,
laughing. Then they realized that, no, they weren't going to take off
again.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

B24
wrote in message
ups.com...
| Dan,
|
| Actually the airplane that came to a stop in the whiteout
over
| Greenland was a B-17 (My Gal Sal). That began a very long
rescue
| effort (some months) in which a number of people died
getting the crew
| out.
|
| What you may be recalling is that the legendary Bernt
Balchen (first
| person to pilot an aircraft over both poles, Byrd's pilot
across the
| Atlantic in 1927 and over the South Pole in 1929) landed a
PBY, gear
| up, on the ice pack a number of times during the rescue
(he also
| successfully took off). He also landed on a temporary
lake that formed
| on the ice pack due to melting ice.
|
| All the best,
| Rick
|
| Cub Driver wrote:
| On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:50:29 -0800, "Seth Masia"

| wrote:
|
| My buddy Buzz Fiorini used to fly his C180 floatplane
over to Sun Valley and
| land on a snow-packed meadow. Did it regularly, for
years, with no damage.
|
| During WWII in a whiteout, a PBY Catalina was flying
over the
| Greenland ice cap at 10,000-plus feet when the crew
realized that
| though the engines were developing full revs, the plane
wasn't moving
| any longer. They'd landed on the snow. They piled out
and ran around,
| laughing. Then they realized that, no, they weren't
going to take off
| again.
|
|
| -- all the best, Dan Ford
|
| email: usenet AT danford DOT net
|
| Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
| Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
| the blog: www.danford.net
| In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com
|

On 6 Dec 2005 04:30:24 -0800, wrote:

Dan,

Actually the airplane that came to a stop in the whiteout over
Greenland was a B-17 (My Gal Sal). That began a very long rescue
effort (some months) in which a number of people died getting the crew
out.

What you may be recalling is that the legendary Bernt Balchen (first
person to pilot an aircraft over both poles, Byrd's pilot across the
Atlantic in 1927 and over the South Pole in 1929) landed a PBY, gear
up, on the ice pack a number of times during the rescue (he also
successfully took off). He also landed on a temporary lake that formed
on the ice pack due to melting ice.

All the best,
Rick


Rick, Dan is correct, such an incident did in fact occur. Here is the
full accounting:

Consolidated PBY-5A Catalina
(7278)

This accident occurred while flying over Greenland Ice Cap at an
altitude of 4500-ft indicated. This should have given a clearance of
1000-ft according to charts of the area. Weather and snow covered
terrain resulted in poor depth perception. Without realizing they were
close to the ice, as a horizon was visible and were not on
instruments, they suddenly made contact on the upgrade of a 400-ft
slope. the pilot immediately applied throttles in an attempt to get
into air but was unsuccessful due to the slope. Further attempts to
swing plane around in order to take-off down grade were unsuccessful
as plane sank into snow and ice. Block and tackle was dropped, but
that also proved unsuccessful. The Ice Cap presents an unbroken pure
white surface and when the prominent cost of landmarks are not
visible, depth perception is extremely difficult, analagons to flying
over glassy water in low visibility. It is considered that the
fundamental cause of this accident was the almost lack of depth
perception. This plane and its crew were strained on the ice cap for
fifteen days, but were in constant touch with there base by radio. A
plane dropped supplies and salvage equipment. On the 14th day a Danish
Rescue party reached them. On the fifteenth day they abandoned there
plane, all confidential publications, the IFF, SBAE and RADAR being
destroyed. They returned by foot to the rescue party's came and on the
sixteenth day returned to the NORTH STAR. Except for extreme cold,
none of the crew suffered any ill effects.

I heard of this incident from my father who trained in PBY's in 1943
but did not fly them during his time in the South Pacific, he flew
PB4Y-1's. He told me that he met the pilot of the ill fated PBY. I
believe he was somewhere in the south pacific at the time he met the
pilot, and the guy told him the story first hand.

In my father's version, he claimed the crew did not actually notice
that they had stopped on the ice cap. The pilot did notice that the
airspeed indicator had dropped to zero and sent the engineer to see if
the pitot tube had iced over. The flight engineer returned to tell
him that it looked like they were not actually flying...

I think the official version from:
http://home6.inet.tele.dk/ron/greenland/crash270143.htm

is probably more accurate, after all, there is a certain amount of
noticeable deceleration when you come to a stop from 100mph or so.

Corky Scott

after all, there is a certain amount of
noticeable deceleration when you come to a stop from 100mph or so.

Given that there was an upslope and a downslope, I tend to agree.
However, if it were fairly flat, and the aircraft settled gently (a
greaser landing) and the props cleared the ground, I suppose it might
not be noticed from certain perspectives, especially with sufficient
padded winter clothing, a little turbulence, and a lot of noise while
flying.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

PBY and a B24 props will both clear the ground in such a
gear up landing. But a B17 will have the props destroyed,
thus there would be no continued attempt to fly in a B17.

Google for "greenland wwii airplane" returns...
WWII Plane Emerges From Ice to Fly Again News article: WWII
Plane Emerges From Ice to Fly Again. ... By the time he got
to Greenland, accumulated snow and ice had squashed the
plane flat. ...
www.stelzriede.com/ms/html/sub/mshwma20.htm - 5k -
Cached - Similar pages


Flight-History.com - Your Online Aviation Community During
the summer of 1942, one of World War II's most fascinating
sagas took place on the icy slopes of Greenland. A flight of
World War II airplanes were ...
http://www.flight-history.com/arch/s...p?contentID=57
- 10k - Cached - Similar pages


Wooden airplane kits: Multiple Engine Aircraft,hobby
world,hobby ... WWII Aeroplanes Series. Instructions: ...
airplanes, aeroplanes, wwi, ww1, wwii, ww2, wooden airplane
kits, models, guillo Wing span:, sterling, estes, ...
www.hobbyworldinc.com/planes6.html - 14k - Cached -
Similar pages


SSDB: Needs More Cowbell I had orders for Greenland.
Broadcasters never stayed long in a plum stateside ... The
game's plot involved most of the surviving privately owned
WWII ...
www.sgtstryker.com/weblog/archives/004534.php - 32k -
Cached - Similar pages


ALONG THE FROZEN WATERFRONT (WWII IN THE ARCTIC) The
operations in Greenland were kept secret; crewmembers were
neither ... from Comanche Bay and was lost in a crevasse
near the airplane with his sled. ...
www.jacksjoint.com/frozen.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar
pages


Wwii Aircraft - Aircraft Wwii Aircraft : A World War II
fighter pilot is reunited with his Hurricane aircraft. ...
WWII Greenland and Patrol Honored (Reg Req'd) ...
wwiiaircraft.izaraircraft.com/ - 23k - Dec 5, 2005 -
Cached - Similar pages


The Glacier Girl Gazette - Online News about Glacier Girl
and the ... In 1992, the airplane was nothing more than a
collection of aircraft parts that had just been rescued from
under the Greenland ice cap after 50 years. ...
www.thelostsquadron.com/gazette/ - 9k - Dec 6, 2005 -
Cached - Similar pages


P-38 Lesson Plan - The P-38 Lightning ... Labrador to Bluie
West One (Greenland), to Reykjavik, Iceland, and finally to
.... Lance C. Wade. * Flew a P-38 Lightning for all or part
of WWII ...
www.p38lessonplan.com/p-38H.html - 22k - Cached -
Similar pages


and for "greenland wwii airplane b24 ice cap"

Warbird Alley: B-29 Superfortress
Consolidated B-24 Liberator · Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer
.... which was abandoned
on a Greenland ice cap after an emergency landing nearly 50
years ago. ...
www.warbirdalley.com/b29.htm - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

AirPirates
File Format: Unrecognized - View as HTML
In addition they flew throughout New Guinea to inspect WWII
aircraft including
.... was recovered from the Greenland Ice Cap by Gary
Larkins, Greg Winschell, ...
www.airpirates.com/gallery/rss.php - Similar pages

AirPirates
Searching for historic WWII aircraft in the Solomon
Islands and finding Zeros,
... Flying Fortress B-17E "My Gal Sal" from the ice cap
and its restoration. ...
www.airpirates.com/gallery/
albums.php?set_albumListPage=2 - 41k - Cached - Similar
pages

NAVAL AVIATION MUSEUM FOUNDATION - NATIONAL FLIGHT LOG -
SQUADRONS
The new squadron's home base was at Narsarssuak, Greenland,
code name Bluie ...
Eighty-five per cent of the island is covered with a great
ice cap of ...
www.naval-air.org/flightlog/squadrons/vp-6.htm - 30k -
Cached - Similar pages

MAAM Member's Update -- February 2003
Brad piloted one of the P-38's that landed on the Greenland
ice cap during the
ferry flight ... AIRPLANE RIDES: These are given all three
days of the event. ...
www.maam.org/newsletters/feb03/feb03news.html - 37k -
Cached - Similar pages

Alaska B-17 Recovery
Of particular interest were a Lockheed P-38 Lightning,
Consolidated B-24 ...
feet into the Greenland Ice Cap, where Larkins spent 10 days
dissassembling, ...


"Jose" wrote in message
m...
| after all, there is a certain amount of
| noticeable deceleration when you come to a stop from
100mph or so.
|
| Given that there was an upslope and a downslope, I tend to
agree.
| However, if it were fairly flat, and the aircraft settled
gently (a
| greaser landing) and the props cleared the ground, I
suppose it might
| not be noticed from certain perspectives, especially with
sufficient
| padded winter clothing, a little turbulence, and a lot of
noise while
| flying.
|
| Jose
| --
| You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose
whom to love.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
newsd9lf.11192$Wu.3984@fed1read05...
Would puncturing a float be a concern when it comes to ice?

Not if the ice is flat, solid, and strong enough to support the airplane.

However, broken ice floating just below the surface is a significant risk.
It certainly can tear the skin of a float or the hull of a boat-hull
seaplane, and if the conditions are right, the ice is completely invisible.

The video posted is crappy as all get out (not only is the source analog,
but it looks like the tape's been used a zillion times before). It's hard
to tell if the ice is solid or not...it seems as though the ice during the
backtaxi isn't. But the floats do seem to stay on top during the takeoff.
Seems to me that's probably a matter of luck than good planning though,
since the airplane was clearly not supported by the ice at the beginning of
the video.

Pete