CFI in IMC with Student

Roy Page wrote:
My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from the
right seat.

The FAA doesn't care what seat you're sitting in. While it is
traditional for instructor check rides to be taken from the right
seat (assuming whatever you brought along for the ride has
side-by-side seating), there's nothing that requires you to sit in any
particular seat while exercising the priveleges of your certificates
and ratings.

On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot in
the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under the
hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

There's nothing you've described so far which would lead me to believe
it was illegal. As for whether it was poor judgement or not, that's
impossible to say without knowing a lot more about the situation (and
even then, I'm sure any group of 10 pilots would have 12 or more
opinions on the subject).

It does sound like you've got an axe to grind, however. Basicly, this
boils down to you saying, "I think this guy showed poor judgment, don't
you agree with me?" Were you the pilot in question?

Yes I do have an axe to grind, this CFI seems to have a habit of doing
things which show poor judgment.
For instance, VOR A circular approaches at absolute minimums to a very small
airport when an ILS is just 10 miles away.
Several local pilots and instructors hold similar opinions and he appears to
be an accident just waiting to happen.
Do you just stand by and do nothing ?

Roy



"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Roy Page wrote:
My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from
the
right seat.

The FAA doesn't care what seat you're sitting in. While it is
traditional for instructor check rides to be taken from the right
seat (assuming whatever you brought along for the ride has
side-by-side seating), there's nothing that requires you to sit in any
particular seat while exercising the priveleges of your certificates
and ratings.

On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot
in
the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under the
hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

There's nothing you've described so far which would lead me to believe
it was illegal. As for whether it was poor judgement or not, that's
impossible to say without knowing a lot more about the situation (and
even then, I'm sure any group of 10 pilots would have 12 or more
opinions on the subject).

It does sound like you've got an axe to grind, however. Basicly, this
boils down to you saying, "I think this guy showed poor judgment, don't
you agree with me?" Were you the pilot in question?

In article et,
"Roy Page" wrote:

Yes I do have an axe to grind, this CFI seems to have a habit of doing
things which show poor judgment.
For instance, VOR A circular approaches at absolute minimums to a very small
airport when an ILS is just 10 miles away.
Several local pilots and instructors hold similar opinions and he appears to
be an accident just waiting to happen.
Do you just stand by and do nothing ?

Of course not. You should bitch about him on a newsgroup. If that doesn't
work, try talking to him directly.

To be honest, though, if your level of experience is such that you talk
about "circular approaches", I have to wonder if you're in a position to be
passing judgment on other people's instrument flying.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 03:16:07 GMT, Roy Page wrote:

Yes I do have an axe to grind, this CFI seems to have a habit of doing
things which show poor judgment.
For instance, VOR A circular approaches at absolute minimums to a very small
airport when an ILS is just 10 miles away.
Several local pilots and instructors hold similar opinions and he appears to
be an accident just waiting to happen.
Do you just stand by and do nothing ?

Roy

Hmm, can't say anything about the instructor you are talking about, but I
had an instructor that had me go to minimums at my own airport (VOR A at
MBO) circle to land.

In fact, one lesson, we tried three times to come back, and was in the clag
for all three missed approaches. Decided at that time, ILS at HKS is our
next option. Little did we know it went down to ILS minimums at HKS. We
broke out exactly 200 AGL at the middle marker.

I had three lessons right at minimums at my own airport, so when it came
for my first single pilot IFR, guess what? It was no big deal! He put me
through the mill, but when the chips (ceilings in this case) were down, I
was trained in the real deal. First day on my single pilot IFR, I went up
with 1000 foot ceilings, shot 3 ILS approaches, and felt like I had a ton
of time when I broke out. By the time I came back to my own airport,
ceilings went up to 1500, again, no biggie having gone through the "worst
case scenario" in my training.

I was thankful this instructor was not afraid to do the real deal IMC. He
went on to the airlines, and I finished up with a second instructor who
would never fly to minimums. My second instructor on the other hand, gave
me the discipline I now have in the cockpit so that I am further ahead of
the plane then I was with the first instructor. A great balance I
thought....

So, in regards to your opinion about doing circling approaches when there
is an ILS near by, well, I'd have to disagree with your opinion. If you do
not go one feet below MDA, then what is the big deal about a circle to land
approach? Bottom line, you still have to fly the plane.

Would you say I had poor judgment just because I enjoy flying in the clag,
and going down to minimums?

Allen

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 02:50:34 GMT, "Roy Page"
wrote:

Ron, Thanks for your input.

My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from the
right seat.
Am I correct ? I am not sure.

You asked about legality. There's no requirement in the regulations for
seat specific checkouts in small GA aircraft. There's no regulation
preventing me from flying right seat in IMC with passengers and acting as
PIC. I'm not aware of anything more restrictive for a CFI.


On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot in
the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under the
hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

Assuming the CFI is rated and current, I see no legal problem with this
scenario. (I assume you meant the pilot in the left seat did the flying).
And, at least from what you present here, *I* would not even consider it to
represent poor judgement. Personally, I think it is an excellent idea for
all pilots to get exposed to IMC and if a pilot is rated, current, and
legal to act as PIC under IMC, it doesn't really matter to me whether or
not that pilot has a II.

I think if you are trying to make a case that this CFI is exercising poor
judgement, you'll need better examples.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Roy Page wrote:
: I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

: Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
: with a student in IMC ?

: In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
: what say the group ?

Others have expressed my sentiment fairly well, but I would just like to
reiterate that given the information you have provided, it's not only legal, but often
a good idea. I think that even primary student pilots taking their checkride never
having seen the inside of a cloud is reckless and irresponsible IMO.... let alone
people taking instrument checkrides with only hoodwork. The hood is *NOT* adequate
training for the disorientation that can arise from being in IMC.

As long as the CFI is IFR current, has received a clearance, and is ensuring
they fly the clearance, it's perfectly legal. The regs do not say which seat one must
fly from. Whether or not it can be logged as dual is another question that I'm not
equipped to answer, but acting as PIC is fine.

WRT your comment about circling approaches, as long as he didn't decend below
minimums it's again not only safe and legal, but a GOOD IDEA to get practice in. The
PTSs (or IPCs?) have recently been updated to require some circling training.

Non-precision vs. ILS is another one. My home field (KBCB) has a LOC/DME
that'll get you down to 400'. The closest ILS (KPSK 16 miles west) only gets you to
300'. IMO, the LOC/DME is easier to fly, and in many ways with the mountains around
here, safer. Not irresponsible at all.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:
As long as the CFI is IFR current, has received a clearance, and is
ensuring they fly the clearance, it's perfectly legal. The regs do not
say which seat one must fly from. Whether or not it can be logged as
dual is another question that I'm not equipped to answer, but acting as
PIC is fine.

Yes, the student can log it as PIC (if they are the "sole manipulator of
the controls"). What the student cannot do is count it as part of the
required hours of instrument instruction towards an instrument rating.
It's PIC time, it's instruction received time, it's instrument time, it
just doesn't count towards the rating.

Roy Smith wrote:
: wrote:
: As long as the CFI is IFR current, has received a clearance, and is
: ensuring they fly the clearance, it's perfectly legal. The regs do not
: say which seat one must fly from. Whether or not it can be logged as
: dual is another question that I'm not equipped to answer, but acting as
: PIC is fine.

: Yes, the student can log it as PIC (if they are the "sole manipulator of
: the controls"). What the student cannot do is count it as part of the
: required hours of instrument instruction towards an instrument rating.
: It's PIC time, it's instruction received time, it's instrument time, it
: just doesn't count towards the rating.

I never said otherwise. I wasn't sure if there was anything in the
regulations about when an instructor can say he was giving dual. There probably
isn't... so yes... it's dual, it's instrument, it's PIC, but it's not applicable
dual for an instrument rating.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

The CFI (or CFII) only must hold CFI priv's in the aircraft in order to
log it as dual. So a CFI, non MEI cannot log dual in a twin. The
language of the FARs reads "within the limitations of the certificate".

-robert

Roy Smith wrote:
wrote:

As long as the CFI is IFR current, has received a clearance, and is
ensuring they fly the clearance, it's perfectly legal. The regs do not
say which seat one must fly from. Whether or not it can be logged as
dual is another question that I'm not equipped to answer, but acting as
PIC is fine.


Yes, the student can log it as PIC (if they are the "sole manipulator of
the controls"). What the student cannot do is count it as part of the
required hours of instrument instruction towards an instrument rating.
It's PIC time, it's instruction received time, it's instrument time, it
just doesn't count towards the rating.

I haven't read the regs lately, but do they specifically require
simulated instrument flight in order to count?


Matt