Newbie holding questions

"JohnK" wrote in message
oups.com...

I am getting ready to start IFR training next week, and there are a
couple of questions regarding holding that I have been pondering.
(Searched through here already, but couldn't find the answers...at
least spelled out for me

When being assigned a hold, will ATC usually assign an altitude as
well?


No, an altitude is not specifically part of a holding instruction. There'd
be no need to issue an altitude if you're to hold at the currently assigned
altitude.



None of the samples I've seen in the FAA text or the AIM mention
an altitude in a clearance, and it made me wonder what happens when a
large volume of aircraft are holding at a busy airport waiting to land.
Do they "stack 'em and rack 'em" (like it looked the two times I've
flown into LHR), or do they have them hold all over the place (which I
observed on the BOS Airport Monitor a few weeks ago when that snowstorm
rolled through.)


They may do both and also employ other floe control measures.



Secondly, what happens there is a holding pattern used to enter an
approach to landing, and there are multiple aircraft landing? For
example, if there were several planes flying into Charlottesville (CHO)
from the east (GVE VOR, 17 nm), wouldn't everyone be entering the
holding pattern at 3300', thus creating a collision hazard? Or would
ATC only clear one aircraft at a time for the approach? Which doesn't
seem to do much for volume, but normally isn't an issue at a place like
CHO unless there is a football game....


At CHO they will be radar sequenced for the approach, football game or not.

An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if they
forget, ask.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
| "JohnK" wrote in message
|
oups.com...
|
| I am getting ready to start IFR training next week, and
there are a
| couple of questions regarding holding that I have been
pondering.
| (Searched through here already, but couldn't find the
answers...at
| least spelled out for me
|
| When being assigned a hold, will ATC usually assign an
altitude as
| well?
|
|
| No, an altitude is not specifically part of a holding
instruction. There'd
| be no need to issue an altitude if you're to hold at the
currently assigned
| altitude.
|
|
|
| None of the samples I've seen in the FAA text or the AIM
mention
| an altitude in a clearance, and it made me wonder what
happens when a
| large volume of aircraft are holding at a busy airport
waiting to land.
| Do they "stack 'em and rack 'em" (like it looked the two
times I've
| flown into LHR), or do they have them hold all over the
place (which I
| observed on the BOS Airport Monitor a few weeks ago when
that snowstorm
| rolled through.)
|
|
| They may do both and also employ other floe control
measures.
|
|
|
| Secondly, what happens there is a holding pattern used
to enter an
| approach to landing, and there are multiple aircraft
landing? For
| example, if there were several planes flying into
Charlottesville (CHO)
| from the east (GVE VOR, 17 nm), wouldn't everyone be
entering the
| holding pattern at 3300', thus creating a collision
hazard? Or would
| ATC only clear one aircraft at a time for the approach?
Which doesn't
| seem to do much for volume, but normally isn't an issue
at a place like
| CHO unless there is a football game....
|
|
| At CHO they will be radar sequenced for the approach,
football game or not.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:Xk0vf.40491$QW2.2848@dukeread08...

An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if they
forget, ask.


An EFC is not issued when no delay is expected.

But if no delay is expected and you have a radio failure
without an EFC, just how long are you expected to hold?

If you are given a clearance to hold w/o an EFC there is
still some delay expected, otherwise ATC would not issue a
hold. Make them say how much delay or give an EFC/EAC time
or you'll be holding until the fuel runs out. Maybe the
book does not require ATC to issue a time, but my sense of
self-preservation wants to know.

If I'm told to expect a hold, perhaps there are weather
delays or even a traffic situation [maybe a NORDO ahead]
I'll ask for a reduced speed, perhaps I filed 260 KTAS and
can slow to 200-220 KTAS and avoid holding and still give
them time.

If I have requested a hold for training, I'll tell them I
want 3 or four turns and I'll try to do it away from the FAF
to ease the load on the system.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:Xk0vf.40491$QW2.2848@dukeread08...
|
| An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if
they
| forget, ask.
|
|
| An EFC is not issued when no delay is expected.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:%D0vf.40496$QW2.15228@dukeread08...

But if no delay is expected and you have a radio failure
without an EFC, just how long are you expected to hold?


You're not expected to hold.



If you are given a clearance to hold w/o an EFC there is
still some delay expected, otherwise ATC would not issue a
hold.


If a delay was expected an EFC would have been issued.



Make them say how much delay or give an EFC/EAC time
or you'll be holding until the fuel runs out. Maybe the
book does not require ATC to issue a time, but my sense of
self-preservation wants to know.


How much delay? The answer is "None." The book says do not specify an EFC
if no delay is expected. If your sense of self-preservation can't live with
that don't fly IFR.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 03:35:47 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:Xk0vf.40491$QW2.2848@dukeread08...

An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if they
forget, ask.


An EFC is not issued when no delay is expected.

If no delay is expected, then why be put in the hold in the first place?

If no EFC and radios go belly up while in IMC, when would you know to leave
the hold?

Allen

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

If no delay is expected, then why be put in the hold in the first place?


It's a tool of nonradar separation, it's called a "paper stop". Let's say
two aircraft are estimated to cross at a fix eight minutes apart. Minimum
separation is ten minutes, so some action must be taken. The later aircraft
is issued a hold prior to the common fix. Since the first aircraft is
expected to pass the common fix before the second aircraft reaches the
holding fix no delay is expected and no EFC is issued.



If no EFC and radios go belly up while in IMC, when would you know to
leave
the hold?


Without an EFC I wouldn't enter the hold. It's a moot point anyway,
whatever caused my comm radios to go belly up will affect my nav radios the
same way and I won't be able to identify the holding fix.