I think I know why so many Cirrus' crash

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
"John Doe" wrote:

Before you rip on too many Cirrus owners, did he have to go around for
poor
airspeed control?

Maybe not, but his poor/unsafe pattern entry did distract me from
proper airspeed management. Thus he was the one creating unsafe
conditions. Although I could have landed long, I decided it made
more sense to go around. No shame in that. Especially with an poor
pilot in a Cirrus behind me.


I would love to hear what your insurance company would say about that if you
crash your plane after landing long.
I already said I think you did the right thing by going around. (no shame at
all, I think it shows great decision making)
I've read nothing yet that really convinces me that this Cirrus guy is a bad
pilot. He was flying a non-standard pattern and communicating his
intentions and location on the correct freq. He may be inconsiderate, a
jerk, etc, but in this one case, does that really make him a bad pilot? (we
don't really know if the same pilot was seen on other occasions is the game
guy)



Is John Doe your name or are you afraid to use your real name like I
do?


You're so brave, cudos to you.

"Happy Dog" wrote:

"Ron Lee" wrote in
"John Doe" wrote:

Before you rip on too many Cirrus owners, did he have to go around for
poor
airspeed control?

Maybe not, but his poor/unsafe pattern entry did distract me from
proper airspeed management.

If that's all it takes, maybe you are more of a danger to yourself and
others than you think.

I was just fast enough that a normal landing was not possible. That
is hardly a safety issue. I was there.


Thus he was the one creating unsafe
conditions.

There are myriad regular distractions at least this distracting that happen
regularly. You said that your stellar judgement keeps you out of situations
where superior skill is necessary.

Never said that. Good try.

Perhaps you should avoid flying anywhere but near remote deserted airports.

Not an option and not needed.


Although I could have landed long, I decided it made
more sense to go around. No shame in that. Especially with an poor
pilot in a Cirrus behind me.

Pot, kettle, etc.

Your opinion. Do you fly?

Is John Doe your name or are you afraid to use your real name like I
do?

Godlike. Your courage is an example to us all.

moo

An anonymous poster. I am impressed.

Ron Lee

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 05:29:09 -0500, Cub Driver usenet AT danford DOT
net wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 05:30:25 GMT, (Ron Lee)
wrote:

I have had concerns about Cirrus pilots after reading of some
of the parachute deployments.

I skim the Aero-News Propwash newsletter each morning. It often seems
that there's a Cirrus deployment de jour. Aero-News thinks it's a
great thing that the parachute saves so many air crew. I think it's a
shame that the parachute trashes so many airframes.

It's a wonder Cirrus pilots can get insurance. Are we paying for them?

We have a husband and wife who have His and hers SR22s on the field,
the cost of insurance was more for an SR22 than for a Glasair III and
they take all the training they can get. They are good pilots,
instrument rated, commercial, and active; flying over 700 hours a year
between the two of them.

What they pay on one SR22 is about a third of what I was quoted for
the insurance on a *new* TBM 700.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:06:40 -0500, "Happy Dog"
wrote:

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Admittedly, I've a bias. I lust after Cirruses a bit. For a while, I
thought one might be in my future (though now I lean more towards another
pair of seats).

For the same price as a new SR-22, you can get a 15 year old Malibu. The
Malibu looks like a much more capable plane. So where are people so
gaa-gaa about the SR-22?

Warranty. Especially for people who are sharing a plane. Good sales team
as well. Spend an hour or two in one and they become difficult not to like.
Have you flown one?


I'd take the Columbia 400 any day over the SR-22

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

moo

John Doe wrote:



I would love to hear what your insurance company would say about that if you
crash your plane after landing long.

They will verify your address so the check will get there. What else
could they possibly say?

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:06:31 GMT, (Ron Lee)
wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:53:07 GMT, "BDS"
wrote in ::

The fact is that traffic can come from anywhere at any time.

That fact seems to have been lost on the majority of participants in
this message thread.

And in my world if the pattern is one thing and any pilot chooses to

Something to remember is a pattern is *not* one thing. Assuming that
everyone uses the same altitude (which is not a safe assumption) the
size of a pattern varies greatly. Down wind my be a 1/4 mile out or
over a mile for something a bit larger, faster, and heavier. Down
wind maybe a mile, a mile and a half, or sometimes over 3 or 4 miles.
Base may be a U-turn from down wind to final close in or well over a
mile out. Maybe even over two miles out.

Now with a heavier twin, or light jet, if they did fly the pattern
they'd be so far out they might as well just come straight in, which
many do.

Here we have the standard left hand pattern, which means we have
people entering the down wind on the 45, on the 45 from a cross mid
field, and cross winds that may be over the end of the runway to 3
miles out. In addition we have three instrument approaches. The VOR
A which comes in on a heading of 137 and reaches half pattern altitude
at roughly 3 miles out. We have GPS approaches for 06 and 24 that
start about 7 miles out and are V-nav which means for VFR pilots in
the pattern they are essentially straight in. That means keeping your
head on a swivel and don't be surprised if you are on down wind for 24
when a twin shoots through 500 feet under you.

In my opinion coming straight in does show poor judgment on the Cirrus
pilot's part as he/she is flying a plane that can handle a relatively
normal pattern. OTOH you will find that their final speed is
considerably higher than that of a Cherokee or 172. It's considerably
higher than that of my Deb.

There is no standard size for a pattern, just the "all turns shall be
made to the left unless otherwise stated" and that is just a
recommendation until some one screws up.

Day before yesterday the trainers and low time pilots were using 18
while basically every one else was using 24. That makes for an
interesting pattern combination.

do whatever they wish then people can die. Had no one been in the
pattern I could not have cared less how the Cirrus driver entered any
part of the pattern.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com



Ron Lee

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:47:52 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On 15 Jan 2006 11:47:46 -0800, "Tony" wrote in
.com::

There are a few things that are dumber than flying a non standard
pattern at an uncontrolled airport.

Would you characterize straight-in instrument approach in VMC as a
standard pattern?

How about Canadanian pilots? To them we are entering down wind on the
wrong side and I think I agree with them.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On 15 Jan 2006 11:47:46 -0800, "Tony" wrote:

There are a few things that are dumber than flying a non standard
pattern at an uncontrolled airport. We have problems enough seeing
airplanes flying correct patterns ("What traffic on short final?") let
alone a guy sneaking onto final low from the wrong side.

Define a standard pattern.
Where do you enter down wind? Mid field, the end of the runway, two
miles out from the end of the runway? (remember the planes practicing
take offs and landings are turning down wind a mile or two out) How
far out from the runway is down wind? quarter mile, half mile, mile?
It depends on what you are flying. What about base? How far from
the end of the runway? How long is final? 1/4 mile, half mile, mile,
two miles? Again it depends on what you are flying. If not flying
the VASI I can easily match a Cherokee 180's imitation of a brick with
a very steep final. At 120 MPH and gear up I can match the flat glide
of a Cessna 172, but it's really not a good way to land.

I fly high performance, complex, retract and yes I can keep a really
tight pattern less than a quarter mile out and make base a U-turn from
down wind to the numbers with a short roll out and I do on occasion,
but I'm sure not going to do it with inexperienced passengers. In
that case I'm going to be a good half to 3/4 mile to the right with
base about a mile and a half out. Final will be a nice comfortable
(and gradual) descent) However that means I'm flying a pattern outside
that of most of the trainers. Twins fly larger patters yet. Jets
flying the pattern are usually so far out on down wind the trainers
will think they are headed for another airport, so they seldom bother.

As for cross wind, my preferred entry is *across* mid field at pattern
altitude. (This *is* the entry used in Canada and I think they got it
right) It gives you the best view. My most despised is those
entering cross wind over the numbers to about a half mile out as that
is where a lot of planes are reaching pattern altitude which makes the
entering traffic difficult to spot and the departing traffic is
difficult to spot for the entering traffic.

I wonder how many I haven't seen. I've surely seen enough. Years ago I
remember seeing a yellow Cub flying cutting onto final from a treetop
pattern in front of me. It's an eye opener!

One of the rules is "thou shalt not take advantage of a low altitude
to enter the pattern in front of other traffic" It comes right after
that part about lower traffic in the pattern having the right-of-way.

You should have an ultra light pull in front of you when you are only
about 300 feet up on final or discover one coming head on as you are
doing an instrument approach at MDA over the runway. That is when the
flying is completely by feel as you have no time to be looking at
gauges.

The first one I missed by maybe 10 to 20 feet. The second one? The
CFII in the right seat has never told me and that was over 10 years
ago. He just says, "You don't want to know" so I'm guessing it was
not more than a foot or two.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

I skim the Aero-News Propwash newsletter each morning. It often seems
that there's a Cirrus deployment de jour. Aero-News thinks it's a
great thing that the parachute saves so many air crew. I think it's a
shame that the parachute trashes so many airframes.


1) There have been six 'chute deployments in six years.

2) Four of the six are flying again (the fifth deployment just occurred
this weekend).
---
Ken Reed

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:20:20 -0500, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote:


"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
Coming back from KCOS to 00V today several aircraft were in the
pattern for runway 33 and some people wanted runway 15 since the winds
were at the changeover point. With one or two at the runup area for
runway 15 I just went east until the fiasco was sorted out (I made
several position reports since people were all over).

Once that happened I announced my intentions (enter left downwind for
15) about 7-8 miles out and not long after that a Cirrus announced he
was 10 miles out. When I was on left downwind the Cirrus pilot
broadcast that he was on about 4 mile base for 15. I "assumed" he
meant downwind. Then when I was about to turn base he called out four
mile FINAL for 15. I saw a plane in that area and turned base
(calling it out by radio of course)

He asked if I was cutting in front of him and I stated "Looks like
it."

You are lower, in the pattern and turning final following procedure.

However if you were in the proper place at the proper time you should
have been at the proper speed.

Be prepared and be flexible. ATC has a way of asking pilots to "keep
the speed up as long as praticable".


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com