First Glider - No Gelcoat

Your first glider should be one that you can fly safely, enjoy flying
it, learn from it and from its handling. The finish of the glider is
important, but there are many other even more important issues. Jantar
Std. is good, solid, built like a tank glider, but it is not for a
beginner pilot. The same applies to the PIK gliders. The LS-4 could
also be handfull if flown by a pilot with limited experience. And that
is true with any composite glider. It is not a simple problem and
advises like that, even though they ment well, can be frustrating. I
would suggest that you fly several different gliders, don't rush to buy
one, but rather fly what is available for rent for at least a full
season and then make your decision.

Sincerely,

Jacek Kobiesa
Washington State

I will second what has been said here and add this--
With older gliders, condition is everything and trailer condition is more
important than anything else. If it's a pain to rig, you will be less
inclined to fly on margial days. Ergonomics matter a lot too. Some of us are
not built for a Jantar. Tall, slender with long arms and you're fine. Any
glass ship will bite you if you are not well trained. Serious drill in a
glass twoplace with an instructor is required. The insidious part is that
they seem so docile up to a point.
So general condition, ease of rigging and comfort for long flight is the
key. You need to learn how to sand gelcoat anyway. Then it needs to be kept
sealed from moisture and UV and it will stay stable a long time.
A L33 Solo might fill the bill for you, and a 1-34 will certaily do the job
nicely (except for the trailer part).
--
Hartley Falbaum
wrote in message
oups.com...
Your first glider should be one that you can fly safely, enjoy flying
it, learn from it and from its handling. The finish of the glider is
important, but there are many other even more important issues. Jantar
Std. is good, solid, built like a tank glider, but it is not for a
beginner pilot. The same applies to the PIK gliders. The LS-4 could
also be handfull if flown by a pilot with limited experience. And that
is true with any composite glider. It is not a simple problem and
advises like that, even though they ment well, can be frustrating. I
would suggest that you fly several different gliders, don't rush to buy
one, but rather fly what is available for rent for at least a full
season and then make your decision.

Sincerely,

Jacek Kobiesa
Washington State

wrote:
Your first glider should be one that you can fly safely, enjoy flying
it, learn from it and from its handling. The finish of the glider is
important, but there are many other even more important issues. Jantar
Std. is good, solid, built like a tank glider, but it is not for a
beginner pilot. The same applies to the PIK gliders. The LS-4 could
also be handfull if flown by a pilot with limited experience. And that
is true with any composite glider. It is not a simple problem and
advises like that, even though they ment well, can be frustrating. I
would suggest that you fly several different gliders, don't rush to buy
one, but rather fly what is available for rent for at least a full
season and then make your decision.

I agree with most of your advice, However, the OP didn't say he was
inexperienced in glass, just that he's buying his first ship. My first
glider was a Ventus, but I had significant time in glass gliders.
How is an LS-4 a handful? I suppose if you've only been in 2-33s or
Blaniks, but I hear it's about as docile as a glider gets.

Shawn

Jacek,

Wad. didn't say he was a beginner pilot, only he was looking for:
1. A first ship
2. One without gel coat
3. Would work while he is learning cross-country and be able to grow
with him as he got better

I still think the Jantar Standard meets all those criteria. My first
ship was a Std. Cirrus. If I listened to all the pundits I should have
been killed because they are so hard to fly. What I found was it was
one of the nicest ships around for a first glass and I flew my first
cross countries to my diamond distance flights in the ship. Any new
ship should be approached with caution and a plan should be established
to allow time to learn to fly the ship in low stress environments
before taking one cross country.

I have seen very few areas where a Std Jantar would be difficult for a
relatively competent low time pilot. Any pilot at that stage should be
working with a good instructor that knows the capability of the student
to handle new situation and their rate of learning. The only phase of
flight that is different for the Std. Jantar is take-off due to the
high angle of attack. This does not take long to learn and with use of
spoilers minimizes the issue.

If the student is competent and a reasonable learner they will out grow
the L-33, SGS 1-34 and other similar ships very quickly. Why waste
their time going through two or more ships. I usually recommend a
minimum of 25 hours and 10 flights in a new ship for a low time pilot
before they consider going cross country. The 25 hours will make sure
they have thermalled enough to know what the stall characteristics are
and how the plane will react prior to stall.

They should also have an instructor or coach evaluating their readiness
to progress to the next level.

I am 5' 9" and fit in a Std. Jantar just fine.

All glass ships as well as all gliders must be approached with caution
and respect, but most pilots interested in going cross country that
have time in a glass trainer will have little trouble transitioning to
most of the standard class ships. I don't think the transition is
that difficult due to the ship as much as the change in performance
from most trainers. That is where a good training plan is needed to
allow the pilot to stay ahead of the ship. I have over 500 hours each
in a Std. Cirrus and a Nimbus 2M as well as a hundred this last year in
a Ventus B. They all are supposed to be somewhat difficult to fly, but
I have enjoyed them all and learned a great deal about soaring from
each one.

Tim

TTaylor at cc.usu.edu wrote:
I still think the Jantar Standard meets all those criteria. My first
ship was a Std. Cirrus. If I listened to all the pundits I should have
been killed because they are so hard to fly. What I found was it was
one of the nicest ships around for a first glass and I flew my first
cross countries to my diamond distance flights in the ship.

As the former owner of a Std Cirrus that I enjoyed for two years and 300
hours, I have to respectfully disagree with Tim's assessment of the Std
Cirrus. The Std Cirrus has poor spoilers, the early models had spun
easily, the all-flying tail is a handful over 80 mph (literally - two
hands on the stick), the wheel brake is pathetic, and the crash
protection is minimal (as were all gliders of the era). Nowadays, there
are MUCH better choices. I would much rather see any pilot in an LS4 (or
later design), and especially a low time pilot.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

www.motorglider.org

Eric,

I was not advocating that he buy a Std. Cirrus, only pointing out that
I found it a good ship in spite of all the nay sayers that will tell
you how bad any older ship is. I feel the Std. Jantar is a good ship
for a newer pilot, the LS-4 of course is nearly the gold standard in
terms of an 80's vintage gliders. Anything newer will for the most
part have similar handling.

I still love the Std. Cirrus in spite of all the points you make about
it. I flew serial number 17, George Moffat's original Std. Cirrus
that was supposed to stall so badly. I never found it to be a problem
or concern. I could hang it on the tail and out climb almost any other
ship. And yes we Cirri pilots did learn how to slip on final.

If you want fun with a stall, try spinning the Nimbus 2 while trying to
take a turn point picture with the old cameras. That will get your
attention in a hurry.

Tim

TTaylor at cc.usu.edu wrote:
Eric,

I was not advocating that he buy a Std. Cirrus, only pointing out that
I found it a good ship in spite of all the nay sayers that will tell
you how bad any older ship is.

I'm sure you enjoyed ship (I enjoyed mine when I had it, but I wouldn't
fly one now, even though I have thousands more hours), but any one of
the things I mentioned take it out of the "good ship" category, in my
opinion. It's not that these things can't be compensated for by pilot
training, experience, and some modifications in the case of the wheel
brake, it's that these attributes don't need to be tolerated any more by
someone that wants a "good" glider. Further, there is no cure for the
poor crashworthiness, and (again, in my opinion) a glider should be much
better than the early 70's era gliders in this regard to get a "good"
rating these days.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

www.motorglider.org

Eric Greenwell wrote:
TTaylor at cc.usu.edu wrote:

I still think the Jantar Standard meets all those criteria. My first
ship was a Std. Cirrus. If I listened to all the pundits I should have
been killed because they are so hard to fly. What I found was it was
one of the nicest ships around for a first glass and I flew my first
cross countries to my diamond distance flights in the ship.


As the former owner of a Std Cirrus that I enjoyed for two years and 300
hours, I have to respectfully disagree with Tim's assessment of the Std
Cirrus. The Std Cirrus has poor spoilers, the early models had spun
easily, the all-flying tail is a handful over 80 mph (literally - two
hands on the stick), the wheel brake is pathetic, and the crash
protection is minimal (as were all gliders of the era). Nowadays, there
are MUCH better choices. I would much rather see any pilot in an LS4 (or
later design), and especially a low time pilot.


Hi Eric

As current and low time owner of a Std Cirrus -

Yes the airbrakes are mediocre - unless you fit the modification to two plate.
My early model will drop a wing with very little warning, but if you unload the
wing she does not enter a full spin.
If your trim springs are right the all flying tail needs two fingers at any
speed up to Vne - been there.
In the hands of an inexperienced pilot PIO on landing can be a problem. (don't
ask)That elevator is sensitive, as you said.
What wheel brake -

Cirrus certainly forced me to grow my skills, and the Cirrus is
- A great climber
- Not full of vices
- Demanding of precision - which is a good thing if you are learning
- Comfortable for a big lump like me
- Affordable, was the best available that I could afford
- Very favourably handicapped for contests and OLC
- Mine has the best trailer in the club

Are there easier / better gliders - yes - even when it was new. Conversely my
Cirrus has national and international record flights for the first decade of
it's existence.

SO advice remains - Get the best glider you can, and make sure it has a good
trailer, have an instructor who can guide you, treat it with respect.

I am sure I will graduate onto "better" gliders like you, but Std Cirrus #57 has
taken me from a goldfish pilot to a beginner XC and contest pilot, and taught me
a lot. I will no doubt have a MUCH greater appreciation of the genteel manners
of my next airplane, at this stage I don't know better and am very happy with
what I have.

The one thing that will/does motivate me to move up is the crash protection.
First generation glass is not going to be much protection in a crash...

With respect though - the glider is the least of your worries, bad decision
making is far more likely to get you hurt.

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

On 9 Feb 2006 11:06:21 -0800, wrote:

The LS-4 could
also be handfull if flown by a pilot with limited experience.

Hmmm... Have you ever flown one?
Usually today LS-4's ad similar gliders are being flown safely by
student pilots with 40 total hours.

Contrary to common believe, all German Standard Class gliders since
the era of LS-4 and DG-300 are contenders for the price for most
docile glider ever.





Bye
Andreas

Interesting comment made at the SSA Convention Focus on Clubs track.

Generally stated 'We train in G-103's. Yes, it may take longer to solo
than a 2-33, but you will be solo sooner in the G-103 by training in
it, rather than training to soloe in the 2-33 and then transitioning to
the G-103.'

It follows then that you will also likely be solo sooner in the G-102
or LS-4 or ASW-19 or Jantar Std or whatever follows the G-103. The
objective is to dream, and seek opportunities to make that dream the
reality. You might be surprised at what's achieveable when you get rid
of some of the hurdles.

Frank Whiteley