The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training

In article , Richard Isakson
says...

As further proof that Chuck's theory doesn't work, I tried an experiment
this morning. I took a pillow off my bed. It is mostly feathers, after
all. To give it a proper test, I hiked up the Ebey's Landing Bluff Trail to
the edge of the cliff. Having great faith in Chuck and fully expecting my
pillow to soar up over my head, I give that pillow a good strong toss ...
Nope. It went staight down. Splat! Right into the Puget Sound.

Thanks to Chuck, I'll be sleeping on a soggy pillow tonight!

Richard, as I was lamenting your tale of woe I decided to see why you got the
result you did . So I embarked on a non federally funded research project and
made many new scientific discovery's such as:

-Pillows are not Gooses
-Gooses have feathers
-Pillows have down
-Gooses feathers are outside
-Pillows down is inside
-Gooses have down that is in under the feathers
-Gooses are hard to catch ...alive
-Pillows are easy to catch
-Gooses bite...hard
-Pillows are soft
-Gooses keep you awake
-Pillows make you sleepy
-Gooses get grumpy
-Pillows are calm

After obtaining this data I decided to pull all the feathers off a Goose and
leave the down attached.The Goose didn't seem happy, maybe I could get a
research grant to determine if the Gooses get grumpy because they are half naked
or because they're cold.But that's a whole nuther topic. I then proceeded to the
Clark ave bridge (altitude about 75') and pitched this unhappy Goose off to see
him fly .He didn't and boy he was really mad when I went down to
retrieve him.
Then it became obvious that feathers are for flying and down is for "down".
After the first test I thought that possibly I was in an area of high gravity so
I went to where gravity is less ...the airport. Everyone knows airports are
built in low gravity areas.But that's another topic in itself as to how I
discovered that.I then went to the top of the highest hangar and threw the Goose
off. He failed to fly again and was REALLY ****ed off at me.

So therefore it is logical to conclude that Gooses have 2 types of feathers ,one
for flying and one for landing.Pillows are filled with the "down" feathers
..That's why your pillow went "down" when you launched it. This is an example of
why this type of testing must be conducted by experts.

More research must be done so please send money so this very important research
can continue. I'd also like to get a stunt double for the Goose as well. Now I'm
off to see if the reports of an aviator looping,rolling and spinning a cow are
true!!

See ya

Chuck(fly writer,scientist, alchemist and witch doctor) S






-

On one level you can say it's a consequence of the bound vortex around
the wing. Not satisfying? I agree, but that's about as far as most
aerodynamics books go in providing an intuitive answer.

Ok, how about looking at it this way:

Consider the earth and an atmosphere consisting of one air molecule.
(Let's not get into the fact that there's really no such thing as an
"air" molecule, and yet leave the actual choice of gas... uh... in the air)

The molecule starts out motionless (say) a hundred miles above the
earth. Gravity pulls the two of them together, they accelerate towards
each other until the molecule bounces (perfectly) on the surface of the
earth, whereupon both the earth and the molecule return to their
original position and resume the dance. This is air pressure at its
simplest. Momentum is conserved; the total momentum (earth and air
molecule) is always a zero vector sum. The momentum of the air
increases as it accelerates downward, and when it bounces it transfers
its momentum to the earth. The earth does likewise. No net movement of
air.

If a wing is suspended some distance above the earth, it will also begin
to freefall and acquires momentum downwards (the earth is pulled towards
the wing too and acquires an equal but opposite momentum upwards). In
order to remain aloft, the wing grabs an air molecule and flings it
downwards with great gusto, that is, with a momentum equal to what the
wing had acquired. This is sufficient to cancel out its downward
velocity. This air molecule now has an excess momentum which it
transfers to the earth upon impact, cancelling the earth's motion
towards the wing. Net momentum is zero, but as it bounces back up, it
pushes the earth back down where it belongs. Earth has acquired a
downward momentum, the molecule now has an upwards momentum. The
molecule bounces back towards the wing, transfers its excess upwards
momentum to the wing, and pushes the wing back up where it belongs.

At this point the earth is moving down and the wing is moving up.
Gravity slows them down to zero just as they reach their original point.

No net movement of air.

Air pressure works this way to keep the earth away from the wing.
Overall, there is no net movement of air. However, as far as the wing
is concerned, it is flinging air molecules downwards, where there is no
room for it. This increases pressure underneath the wing, and that
pressure manifests itself in upwards motion of the air which helps to
support the wing.

The higher pressure area is in front of the wing because the wing has to
push air away from it in order to pass through it.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Then it became obvious that feathers are for flying and down is for "down".
[...]
So therefore it is logical to conclude that Gooses have 2 types of feathers ,one
for flying and one for landing.

There is more to it than that. Not only does flying require up and
down, they have to be in the right place or the craft will be unstable.
This is why most conventional aircraft have a tail that pushes down,
to counteract the wings that push up. Push-ups are tiring, and after
doing push-ups I have to lie down. If a plane had to do that all the
time we'd never get anywhere, so the down and the up are both put on the
plane. The down is on the tail (when you fall down, you fall on your
tail) and the up is on the wings.

Canard aircraft have only "up" surfaces, which is why only unstable
people fly them. They were obviously designed by unstable people, since
the name "canard" means duck, which is what you should do when you
encounter one of them. Real ducks, of course, have down and up, very
similar to gooses and geese. When they are on the ground, walk up to a
goose and watch its head. It goes down and up.

One of the ways airlines thought of for saving money was to eliminate
the pillows they give to passengers. I guess they figured that if they
had less down, their up would be more efficient. Of course this didn't
happen, which is typical of the results when a bean counter plays the
part of aeronautical engineer. The first effect was that the passengers
became unstable, and then the airline became unstable.

Down is very important for flying - not just for landing.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"TRUTH" wrote in message

..... Consider the collapse of the South WTC Tower
on 9-11:


......But then - and this I'm still
puzzling over - this block turned mostly to powder in mid-air! How can we
understand this strange behavior, without explosives?

God, what a simpleton. Every floor of that tower had about thirty tons of
sheetrock installed (loose estimate - might only be 20 tons). Immediately
upon the collapse initiation, that stuff is pulverized and spews that same
30 tons per floor of gypsum dust in all directions. My [then] 14 year-old
son figured that out about 20 seconds after watching the video for the first
time.

In article , Jose says...

Then it became obvious that feathers are for flying and down is for "down".
[...]
So therefore it is logical to conclude that Gooses have 2 types of feathers ,one
for flying and one for landing.

There is more to it than that. Not only does flying require up and
down, they have to be in the right place or the craft will be unstable.
This is why most conventional aircraft have a tail that pushes down,
to counteract the wings that push up. Push-ups are tiring, and after
doing push-ups I have to lie down. If a plane had to do that all the
time we'd never get anywhere, so the down and the up are both put on the
plane. The down is on the tail (when you fall down, you fall on your
tail) and the up is on the wings.

Canard aircraft have only "up" surfaces, which is why only unstable
people fly them. They were obviously designed by unstable people, since
the name "canard" means duck, which is what you should do when you
encounter one of them. Real ducks, of course, have down and up, very
similar to gooses and geese. When they are on the ground, walk up to a
goose and watch its head. It goes down and up.

One of the ways airlines thought of for saving money was to eliminate
the pillows they give to passengers. I guess they figured that if they
had less down, their up would be more efficient. Of course this didn't
happen, which is typical of the results when a bean counter plays the
part of aeronautical engineer. The first effect was that the passengers
became unstable, and then the airline became unstable.

Down is very important for flying - not just for landing.

Jose

In article , Jose says...

There is more to it than that. Not only does flying require up and
down, they have to be in the right place or the craft will be unstable.
This is why most conventional aircraft have a tail that pushes down,
to counteract the wings that push up. Push-ups are tiring, and after
doing push-ups I have to lie down. If a plane had to do that all the
time we'd never get anywhere, so the down and the up are both put on the
plane. The down is on the tail (when you fall down, you fall on your
tail) and the up is on the wings.
Major snip for brevity.

Well Jose you just provided additional areas of needed research and that more
money must be spent on my "research" projects:-)

I am now constructing a push up outfit with feathers on top in the proper ratio
and down on the bottom. Hmmm sounds like that's just where down should be "on
the bottom". I should be able to perform effortless push up's with it and then
go outside and go fly around a bit to cool off.

Chuck (el Pollo loco) S

In order to remain aloft, the wing grabs an air molecule and flings
it downwards with great gusto, that is, with a momentum equal to what
the wing had acquired.


Here's a thought experiment:

You have a vertical, hollow cylinder that contains a vaccum. You have
a circular disk in the cylinder that has a diameter equal to that of
the cylinder and provides an airtight seal against the cylinder walls.

You inject some gas into the cylinder below the disk. The disk will
rise until the pressure reduces to equal the weight of the disk. At
this point, the system is in equilibrium. What momentum transfer is
required at this point to maintain the weight of the disk?

ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:


Richard, as I was lamenting your tale of woe I decided to see why you got the
result you did . So I embarked on a non federally funded research project and
made many new scientific discovery's such as:

-Pillows are not Gooses
-Gooses have feathers
-Pillows have down
-Gooses feathers are outside
-Pillows down is inside
-Gooses have down that is in under the feathers
-Gooses are hard to catch ...alive
-Pillows are easy to catch
-Gooses bite...hard
-Pillows are soft
-Gooses keep you awake
-Pillows make you sleepy
-Gooses get grumpy
-Pillows are calm


snipped out the complicated part to avoid getting lost again

See ya

Chuck(fly writer,scientist, alchemist and witch doctor) S



I got it, Chuck.

Tim's eloquent theorem showed me the error of my ways.

Richard

still trying to figure out the Helium but tho...

ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
In article , Jose says...

There is more to it than that. Not only does flying require up and
down, they have to be in the right place or the craft will be unstable.
This is why most conventional aircraft have a tail that pushes down,
to counteract the wings that push up. Push-ups are tiring, and after
doing push-ups I have to lie down. If a plane had to do that all the
time we'd never get anywhere, so the down and the up are both put on the
plane. The down is on the tail (when you fall down, you fall on your
tail) and the up is on the wings.
Major snip for brevity.

Well Jose you just provided additional areas of needed research and that more
money must be spent on my "research" projects:-)

I am now constructing a push up outfit with feathers on top in the proper ratio
and down on the bottom. Hmmm sounds like that's just where down should be "on
the bottom". I should be able to perform effortless push up's with it and then
go outside and go fly around a bit to cool off.

I always feel sorry for drakes.

No matter what they do they can't get up for down :-)

You inject some gas into the cylinder below the disk. The disk will
rise until the pressure reduces to equal the weight of the disk. At
this point, the system is in equilibrium. What momentum transfer is
required at this point to maintain the weight of the disk?

The disk is constantly transferring momentum to the air below it, which
is transferring it right back after bouncing off of the floor. The disk
gets the momentum to transfer by beginning to fall down (due to gravity)
and that increases the pressure (the cumulative force of all the gas
molecules crashing into the disk).

If you remove gravity, the disk will start to accelerate upwards from
the pressure, due to transfer of momentum from the gas to the disk,
which is not counteracted by gravity. If the disk is massless, then the
same thing will happen.

If the temperature is lowered, the disk will fall because the molecules
will not have sufficient (thermal motion) momentum to counteract the
disk's force. The falling disk will impart momentum to the gas
molecules (increasing the temperature, or momentum per collision) and
will compress the gas in the cylinder (increasing the pressure, or
number of collisions per area) until equilibrium is once again attained,
at a lower altitude.

If the hollow cylinder has no bottom but is infinitely long, and the
disk still somehow has weight, then the disk will simply fall, imparting
its momentum to the gas molecules (which won't become compressed since
the volume is not increasing, and whose increase in temperature will be
dissipated over an infinite supply of gas. A terminal velocity will be
reached which will depend on the gas density.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.