Finding IAPs by TYPE?

Hello all... I was looking through the online instrument procedures, trying to
find a VOR/DME RNAV approach to do the flight test portion of my KNS-80 IFR
certification. They aren't that prevalent, and I'm in Virginia, but basically equally
close to WV, KY, TN, and NC, which spans a number of sets of plates. I figured online
would be a good way to find one that's close, but none of the sites I've found (AOPA,
NACO.faa.gov, flyguides.com, etc) sort by anything other than identifier. Anyone know
of a place to sort this database by type? Buying a slew of paper plates just to
manually thumb through them and find RNAV approaches seems a bit silly. It seems like
sorting by approach time would be a good idea for a number of these online search
engines... so you can ignore any NDB, GPS, or DME approach if not so equipped.

Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over it...

-Cory


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************************************************** ***********************
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* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:


Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over it...


I think you're that one that needs to "get over it." ;-)

I just find it comical that throughout my avionics upgrade, many people
categorically gave the knee-jerk reaction to install a Garmin 430 or 530 and that the
KNS-80 was "obsolete junk." Apparently, if you don't fly behind a color, moving-map,
IFR-certified GPS, you're plane's barely capable of a sunday afternoon $100 hamburger.
It may be old, but is highly undervalued compared to replacing its functionality with
the de-facto units (e.g. KX-155 w/ GS costs about 2-3x, 430 costs 8-10x as much as a
KNS-80).

-Co-"guess I had more angst than I thought"-ry

wrote:

: wrote:

:
: Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over it...
:

: I think you're that one that needs to "get over it." ;-)


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

The trouble with the KNS80 is that there used to be a few VOR\DME RNAV
approaches around. But the majority of these have been de-commissioned. That
makes the KNS80 a good, but large DME, and can occasionally be used to back
up some other approach. They back up NDB approaches nicely, if close to a
VORTAC.

The price you see them selling for is exactly what they are worth.
Considerable trouble to use them (I did for years) for direct to anywhere.
Just about any GPS has greater utility, including handhelds. They take too
much panel space for what they do.

Karl
wrote in message
...
I just find it comical that throughout my avionics upgrade, many people
categorically gave the knee-jerk reaction to install a Garmin 430 or 530
and that the
KNS-80 was "obsolete junk." Apparently, if you don't fly behind a color,
moving-map,
IFR-certified GPS, you're plane's barely capable of a sunday afternoon
$100 hamburger.
It may be old, but is highly undervalued compared to replacing its
functionality with
the de-facto units (e.g. KX-155 w/ GS costs about 2-3x, 430 costs 8-10x as
much as a
KNS-80).

-Co-"guess I had more angst than I thought"-ry

wrote:

: wrote:

:
: Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over
it...
:

: I think you're that one that needs to "get over it." ;-)


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:

I just find it comical that throughout my avionics upgrade, many people
categorically gave the knee-jerk reaction to install a Garmin 430 or 530 and that the
KNS-80 was "obsolete junk." Apparently, if you don't fly behind a color, moving-map,
IFR-certified GPS, you're plane's barely capable of a sunday afternoon $100 hamburger.
It may be old, but is highly undervalued compared to replacing its functionality with
the de-facto units (e.g. KX-155 w/ GS costs about 2-3x, 430 costs 8-10x as much as a
KNS-80).

It isn't a knee-jerk reaction. Rho Theta calculations are marginal at best, and dangerous
at worst. The VOR system has lost a lot of accuracy since Rho Theta was the engineering
"rage" of the late 1970s.

If all you want is a $100 hamburger, get a hand-held GPS and fly VFR.

One way you can see procedure names in a list is by doing a Volume
search at the following website;

http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp

Click on that link, and it will take you to a page with 2 options,
usually the current FLIPS or the next cycle's FLIPS.
Click on the pub cycle you want, and that takes you to a page with 4
search options (Airport ID, State, Airport Name, or Volume). Click on
the drop down Volume tab and select whichever part of the country you're
searching. (NE has 4 volumes).
When you click on the volume, a list of procedure will show up in
alphabetical order in that volume. Just look at the procedure name in
the right column until you find the type procedure you want. (Example,
there are 19 pages of procedures that you can skim through in NE-2)
The important thing is to search by "volume", and not by airport ID,
airport name or state.
(Note: There are 2 VOR/DME RNAV procedures listed just on the 1st page
of Volume NE-3, at Ronald Reagan Washington National)

JPH

wrote:

Hello all... I was looking through the online instrument procedures, trying to
find a VOR/DME RNAV approach to do the flight test portion of my KNS-80 IFR
certification. They aren't that prevalent, and I'm in Virginia, but basically equally
close to WV, KY, TN, and NC, which spans a number of sets of plates. I figured online
would be a good way to find one that's close, but none of the sites I've found (AOPA,
NACO.faa.gov, flyguides.com, etc) sort by anything other than identifier. Anyone know
of a place to sort this database by type? Buying a slew of paper plates just to
manually thumb through them and find RNAV approaches seems a bit silly. It seems like
sorting by approach time would be a good idea for a number of these online search
engines... so you can ignore any NDB, GPS, or DME approach if not so equipped.

Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over it...

-Cory

J Haggerty wrote:

One way you can see procedure names in a list is by doing a Volume
search at the following website;

http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp

Interesting search option. I did the entire SW-1 and SW-2 (all of California) and found a
total of two Rho/Theta RNAV approach procedures.

Thanks for the info. The Volume tab is better than the state or airport ID
than I was looking through. It's still a bit tedious, since I'm equally close to
NE-3, SE-1, SE-2, and WV. Each one of those four has on the order of 600 documents
spanning 20 pages of non-searchable HTML. I can't find how to say, "Gimme all these
on one page" or "Export list to text" or something. I'm sure the info is available
out there, but I haven't found it.

-Cory

J Haggerty wrote:
: One way you can see procedure names in a list is by doing a Volume
: search at the following website;

: http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp

: Click on that link, and it will take you to a page with 2 options,
: usually the current FLIPS or the next cycle's FLIPS.
: Click on the pub cycle you want, and that takes you to a page with 4
: search options (Airport ID, State, Airport Name, or Volume). Click on
: the drop down Volume tab and select whichever part of the country you're
: searching. (NE has 4 volumes).
: When you click on the volume, a list of procedure will show up in
: alphabetical order in that volume. Just look at the procedure name in
: the right column until you find the type procedure you want. (Example,
: there are 19 pages of procedures that you can skim through in NE-2)
: The important thing is to search by "volume", and not by airport ID,
: airport name or state.
: (Note: There are 2 VOR/DME RNAV procedures listed just on the 1st page
: of Volume NE-3, at Ronald Reagan Washington National)

: JPH

: wrote:

: Hello all... I was looking through the online instrument procedures, trying to
: find a VOR/DME RNAV approach to do the flight test portion of my KNS-80 IFR
: certification. They aren't that prevalent, and I'm in Virginia, but basically equally
: close to WV, KY, TN, and NC, which spans a number of sets of plates. I figured online
: would be a good way to find one that's close, but none of the sites I've found (AOPA,
: NACO.faa.gov, flyguides.com, etc) sort by anything other than identifier. Anyone know
: of a place to sort this database by type? Buying a slew of paper plates just to
: manually thumb through them and find RNAV approaches seems a bit silly. It seems like
: sorting by approach time would be a good idea for a number of these online search
: engines... so you can ignore any NDB, GPS, or DME approach if not so equipped.
:
: Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over it...
:
: -Cory
:
:

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

kage wrote:
: The trouble with the KNS80 is that there used to be a few VOR\DME RNAV
: approaches around. But the majority of these have been de-commissioned. That
: makes the KNS80 a good, but large DME, and can occasionally be used to back
: up some other approach. They back up NDB approaches nicely, if close to a
: VORTAC.

: The price you see them selling for is exactly what they are worth.
: Considerable trouble to use them (I did for years) for direct to anywhere.
: Just about any GPS has greater utility, including handhelds. They take too
: much panel space for what they do.

I will concede that any GPS has more convenient utility for may operations. I
fly behind a VFR GPS/COM as my primary nav instrument, because the "bang for the buck"
makes it a good idea. Aside from the IFR approach capability, getting a Garmin 530
installed for $15-20k doesn't get you any more accurate information than an $800
hand-held GPS, though... just as you say. Not a good price/performance choice, and
puts a lot of faith in one magic box.

In my avionics situation, I needed a VOR-NAV to go with my GPS's COM. I also
needed a glideslope. Given the price of a KN-53 with glideslope costs *more* than a
KNS-80 with much less functionality, it was a no-brainer. Besides, when flying around
in the soup (or not), I don't want to have to poke the GPS dozens of times to find out
where I am relative to something else (poke-poke-twist/twist-'K'-twist/twist-'P'
-twist/twist-'S'-twist/twist-'K'-twist/twist-enter). I like the simplicity of dialing
'116.8' and seeing a DME. Again, personal thing and I certainly wouldn't like flying
without my or using the RNAV as primary on a direct flight for a long distance. As an
aid to situational awareness without having to mess with the GPS, though, it's great.

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

I don't want to have to poke the GPS dozens of times to find out
where I am relative to something else
(poke-poke-twist/twist-'K'-twist/twist-'P'
-twist/twist-'S'-twist/twist-'K'-twist/twist-enter). I like the simplicity of
dialing
'116.8' and seeing a DME.


This has less to do with the GPS than it has to do with the idea of putting as
many functions as possible into as few buttons as possible. With all that
computing power, it's got to be fairly simple to have a dedicated knob that
just cycles through the "nearest" identefiers. Chances are whatever you are
looking for is contextually near something you just did, and cycling
alphabetically through the fifteen choices would be much quicker.

For example, in a flight plan, it would cycle through the nearest identifiers
to the previous entry. The knob would pull out to include (or omit)
intersections. The Apollo unit in our aircraft does something like this
already, but with less smarts.

I tend to use the #2 nav/comm because the knobs always do the same thing. On
the Garmin, I have to be sure I'm in the right mode and have selected NAV or
COMM before twisting. I'd rather just have another knob. In the cockpit that
is more important than geeky button efficiency.

Jose

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