Smooth policy????

X-archive-no: yes

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
Personally, I don't plan to crash and do everything possible to avoid
it. Anyone can decide to sue for any reason, but if you're that
paranoid then you probably shouldn't be carrying passengers to begin
with. Bottom line is that I don't think the $1M smooth policies really
buy you much, nor do I think that the risk is great enough to worry
about the $100k per seat sub limits.

Jonathan,
I used to think in the same line until reading Rick Durden's
article which someone cited earlier in this thread:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189307-1.html

"Some Blunt Talk About Aviation Insurance (or, What You Don't Know
About Sublimits Can Hurt You)
............

Some years ago I worked a case involving a pilot who had a million
dollar policy with $100,000 sublimits. It appeared he was doing
something that might be considered less than safe while carrying one
passenger. He crashed and was killed instantly. The passenger survived
for a period of time, in hideous pain, before dying. The passenger's
estate sued the pilot's estate. The pilot's insurance company put up
the $100,000 sublimit; however, it was nowhere near enough to pay what
was being demanded by the estate of the deceased passenger. Yes, the
estate of the pilot got hit. The widow and children suffered
financially. Now, one of the widow's memories of her husband is that he
was too cheap to buy adequate insurance and it hurt her and the kids.

Yes, the $100,000 sublimit policy (as well as the smooth policy) does
pay for your attorney fees if you are sued. The costs of your defense
do not come out of the $100,000 (or $1 million) pool of money that is
available to pay a person making a claim against you. If you have few
assets beyond your airplane, a $100,000 sublimit policy is likely to be
enough; the injured person will probably take it and go away. However,
by the time you get up to ownership of a Cessna 182 or Cherokee Dakota,
the chances are pretty good that you have assets beyond that airplane;
otherwise you could not have afforded it in the first place. So, to
protect yourself, take a hard look at buying a "smooth" policy, with $1
million completely available, because the chances are that if you screw
up and hurt someone, it won't be a lot of people and each one will have
damages of more than $100,000. You've spent a lot on your airplane --
don't go cheap in protecting yourself and your family.

Sadly, in my experience, a majority of pilots who buy insurance don't
know what a sublimits policy is or what the ramifications are; only
that they are cheaper to buy than a smooth policy.

As I heard recently, cheap is never good and good is never cheap. "

This year, it cost us ~ 1/3 more to get a smooth policy. I consider
the extra $500 is a reasonable price to pay so that we can continue to
enjoy sharing our love of aviation with relatives, friends,
acquaintances and even complete strangers while having some degrees of
protection to our assets. We do everything possible to fly safe but
accidents can happen even to the very experienced and very careful
pilots, IMHO, $100K per passenger is extremely inadequate to pay for
medical cost and compensation for death or serious injuries.

Hai Longworth

Perhaps the widow should forget about the insurance and consider the
husband's reckless regard for her, the kids, and his passenger by doing
something stupid while flying an airplane.

Some years ago I worked a case involving a pilot who had a million
dollar policy with $100,000 sublimits. It appeared he was doing
something that might be considered less than safe while carrying one
passenger.

..stuff snipped, then this tidbit
Now, one of the widow's memories of her husband is that he
was too cheap to buy adequate insurance and it hurt her and the kids.

In article .com,
"Longworth" wrote:
Personally, I don't plan to crash and do everything possible to avoid
it. Anyone can decide to sue for any reason, but if you're that
paranoid then you probably shouldn't be carrying passengers to begin
with. Bottom line is that I don't think the $1M smooth policies really
buy you much, nor do I think that the risk is great enough to worry
about the $100k per seat sub limits.

Jonathan,
I used to think in the same line until reading Rick Durden's
article which someone cited earlier in this thread:


What Rick doesn't say, at least in your excerpt, is what the pilot's
estate was worth. My entire point is that the risk isn't that great
with $100k sub limits on a $1M policy, because if your estate is worth
more than $1M the policy isn't going to protect you anyway. If your
estate is worth, say, $500k, there isn't much incentive IMO to go after
it as a plaintiff because, in the end, the plaintiff may not wind up
with much more than $100k even if they're successful in the lawsuit.

My other point is that I don't intentionally do stupid things in the
airplane, allowing me to avoid the type of accident that Rick's example
illustrates.

Though there are exceptions to every rule, my guess is that most cases
where passengers litigate against a pilot are won or lost based on the
plaintiff's ability to prove willful negligence on the part of the pilot
or operator. If you don't do stupid things with your airplane, you
significantly reduce your risk of bad things happening.



JKG

On 11 Mar 2006 06:23:49 -0800, "Longworth"
wrote:

X-archive-no: yes

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
Personally, I don't plan to crash and do everything possible to avoid
it. Anyone can decide to sue for any reason, but if you're that
paranoid then you probably shouldn't be carrying passengers to begin
with. Bottom line is that I don't think the $1M smooth policies really
buy you much, nor do I think that the risk is great enough to worry
about the $100k per seat sub limits.

And for the typical pilot who reads this group, try to find a company
that will write you a smooth $1MM (Million is two Ms in the financial
industry. Why I don't know)

Jonathan,
I used to think in the same line until reading Rick Durden's
article which someone cited earlier in this thread:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189307-1.html

"Some Blunt Talk About Aviation Insurance (or, What You Don't Know
About Sublimits Can Hurt You)

What he says should be pretty well known as it's nothing new. Yet a
lot of pilots do not know those things.

...........

Some years ago I worked a case involving a pilot who had a million
dollar policy with $100,000 sublimits. It appeared he was doing
something that might be considered less than safe while carrying one
passenger. He crashed and was killed instantly. The passenger survived

Despite the talk and indignation on here, sooner or later nearly every
pilot does something foolish, but they a PPL or ATP and I'd call
showing up at the cockpit still under the influence as being pretty
foolish. Or the time a 732 flew right through our airport area just
100 to 200 feet above the pattern altitude.

for a period of time, in hideous pain, before dying. The passenger's
estate sued the pilot's estate. The pilot's insurance company put up
the $100,000 sublimit; however, it was nowhere near enough to pay what
was being demanded by the estate of the deceased passenger. Yes, the

It may sound cold, but that's life. In many cases the pilot of a
small plane can not afford those limits and their estate can not
afford to go with out. You make a choice. In this case the best
choice is "His and Her" trusts. They can go after your trust, but not
hers, or at least not easily. OTOH it does depend on how and when
those trusts are set up and how they are funded.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
estate of the pilot got hit. The widow and children suffered
financially. Now, one of the widow's memories of her husband is that he
was too cheap to buy adequate insurance and it hurt her and the kids.

Yes, the $100,000 sublimit policy (as well as the smooth policy) does
pay for your attorney fees if you are sued. The costs of your defense
do not come out of the $100,000 (or $1 million) pool of money that is
available to pay a person making a claim against you. If you have few
assets beyond your airplane, a $100,000 sublimit policy is likely to be
enough; the injured person will probably take it and go away. However,
by the time you get up to ownership of a Cessna 182 or Cherokee Dakota,
the chances are pretty good that you have assets beyond that airplane;
otherwise you could not have afforded it in the first place. So, to
protect yourself, take a hard look at buying a "smooth" policy, with $1
million completely available, because the chances are that if you screw
up and hurt someone, it won't be a lot of people and each one will have
damages of more than $100,000. You've spent a lot on your airplane --
don't go cheap in protecting yourself and your family.

Sadly, in my experience, a majority of pilots who buy insurance don't
know what a sublimits policy is or what the ramifications are; only
that they are cheaper to buy than a smooth policy.

As I heard recently, cheap is never good and good is never cheap. "

This year, it cost us ~ 1/3 more to get a smooth policy. I consider
the extra $500 is a reasonable price to pay so that we can continue to
enjoy sharing our love of aviation with relatives, friends,
acquaintances and even complete strangers while having some degrees of
protection to our assets. We do everything possible to fly safe but
accidents can happen even to the very experienced and very careful
pilots, IMHO, $100K per passenger is extremely inadequate to pay for
medical cost and compensation for death or serious injuries.

Hai Longworth

In article ,
Roger wrote:
And for the typical pilot who reads this group, try to find a company
that will write you a smooth $1MM (Million is two Ms in the financial
industry. Why I don't know)

You can find underwriters who will write the policies, but not all of
them will. Not sure what minimum pilot requirements may be necessary
for a $1M smooth policy.

"MM" is most often used in the financial industry, but "M" is also an
acceptable abbreviation for "million."


Despite the talk and indignation on here, sooner or later nearly every
pilot does something foolish, but they a PPL or ATP and I'd call

Speak for yourself. While I've certainly made mistakes and had lapses
in judgment, I wouldn't classify anything I've done as "foolish."
History shows that momentary mistakes and lapses in judgment by
conscientious pilots usually don't kill or hurt people. It is gross
negligence or a pattern of missteps that does folks in. Maintaining a
safe and enduring flying career requires studious risk management.
Anything can happen, but if someone is taking risks that make him so
concerned about litigation, perhaps he should clean up his act or choose
a hobby with risks that he deems more manageable.

The bottom line is that a good insurance policy is no substitute for
good judgment and skill, and it won't keep you out of trouble if you do
something foolish. I'm not sure how much a "smooth" policy of any value
would comfort you if you were responsible for an accident in which
someone was injured or killed due to your lack of judgment or
proficiency.




JKG