HpH 304CZ as first sailplane

fcnorton wrote:
I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about buying a HpH 304C/CZ as my first
sailplane. Am I nuts?

No... It's a reasonable choice.

I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
check ride.

Sounds good.

The reality is that the other sailplanes that meet my criteria are less
money but not THAT much less, especially if this is a plane that I will
not "outgrow" in several years (if ever). I live in Southern
California so I can fly pretty much year round. The ship seems to fit
the bill...I need something that I can store in a GOOD trailer and is
truly a one man assembly. I also need something with a reasonably
sized cockpit, I'm 6'1" and 205#.

ASSUMING that I get some dual time in a glass sailplane prior to
transitioning into the ship is this "too big of a step" for my first
sailplane? There is a 304CZ owner at the club I fly at and he SWEARS

2-33 training is plain and simple inadequate preparation for any
Glasflugel or most glass ships. That said, if you get some additional
dual training in an apropriate aircraft, I think a 304 is a very
reasonable first ship. As a 301 pilot, I can tell you Glasflugel
really was ahead of its time, the 304 is a slick ship. Bear in mind I
said an "appropriate aircraft" however, and I don't think a Grob
qualifies. The Grob is lumbering, and heavy on the controls
comparatively. It basically flies like a 2-33 but with higher
performance and less slop in the controls (I'm sure that statement will
get this thread really moving along nicely). If you can go with a Janus,
Duo Discus, ASK-21, ASK-7, or ASK-13, my guess is they are all better
than a Grob.

good luck!

I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
rental/instructional fleets.

Ray Warshaw

I don't understand "redlline speed and recovery, even with the spoilers
out". The 303 has terminal speed limiting brakes, doesn't the 304?
My 303 doesn't quite make it to manuevering speed with the brakes out and
the nose pointed at the ground. The POH mentions a 2G deceleration if you
pull it all out at redline. Have no intentions of trying that one on my 29
year old lady.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
rental/instructional fleets.

Ray Warshaw

I wasn't aware that the brakes on the 304 would limit speed to below redline
in a vertical dive. If true, the ship goes way up in my estimate of
suitability for a new-to-glass pilot. The manual on my LAK-17 says that the
brakes can be fully extended at redline but to "expect high aerodynamic
forces". I haven't tried it either.

Ray Warshaw
1LK


"303SAM" wrote in message
...
I don't understand "redlline speed and recovery, even with the spoilers
out". The 303 has terminal speed limiting brakes, doesn't the 304?
My 303 doesn't quite make it to manuevering speed with the brakes out and
the nose pointed at the ground. The POH mentions a 2G deceleration if you
pull it all out at redline. Have no intentions of trying that one on my
29
year old lady.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
rental/instructional fleets.

Ray Warshaw

Yes, this is one of the cool things about older ships--I understand it used
to be a requirement of the class.
Again, I don't know about the 304, only the 303.

"Raphael Warshaw" wrote in message
...
I wasn't aware that the brakes on the 304 would limit speed to below
redline
in a vertical dive. If true, the ship goes way up in my estimate of
suitability for a new-to-glass pilot. The manual on my LAK-17 says that
the
brakes can be fully extended at redline but to "expect high aerodynamic
forces". I haven't tried it either.

Ray Warshaw
1LK


"303SAM" wrote in message
...
I don't understand "redlline speed and recovery, even with the spoilers
out". The 303 has terminal speed limiting brakes, doesn't the 304?
My 303 doesn't quite make it to manuevering speed with the brakes out
and
the nose pointed at the ground. The POH mentions a 2G deceleration if
you
pull it all out at redline. Have no intentions of trying that one on my
29
year old lady.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
rental/instructional fleets.

Ray Warshaw

303SAM wrote:
Yes, this is one of the cool things about older ships--I understand it used
to be a requirement of the class.
Again, I don't know about the 304, only the 303.

It was my understanding that it was a requirement that the airbrakes limit
speed to less than Vne even at extreme dive angles. However, I wouldn't
count on that. I seem to remember reading something from Schweitzer
claiming that although their gliders were compliant with that, many of
their competitor's weren't. They also went on to say they thought the
requirement was unreasonable and that they felt their competitor's
performed fine within a reasonable pitch angle (45 degrees?) Point is,
don't try this at home...

dan

Nope, the 304 airbrakes are not terminal velocity limiting. If you've
flown one, you'd think so, but the HpH team says no. The manual says
to expect a 2g decelleration if you pop those bad boys at high speed.
It is correct. Make sure your stuff is stashed or it ends up by the
rudder pedals. Ok, it was a sandwich...
Bill