Amnesty for illegal immigrants will not happen this time.....................

If we could just start now, citizenship if you are conceived
and born here, of parents who are here legally with a visa
that is not a student or tourist visa, in other words,
parents who come here legally with the intention of becoming
citizens.

Also, we need to have English as the official language.



"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...
| Larry Dighera wrote:
| On 31 Mar 2006 04:48:52 GMT,
(Expert Humor)
| wrote in ::
|
|
| While children of illegal aliens are currently
considered to be US
| citizens, perhaps it's time to amend the law
(retroactively) to
| exclude the children of those who cross the US border
ILLEGALLY from
| that right.
|
|
| How far back retroactively are you proposing to go?
|
| If some foreign guy shows up today wanting U.S.
citizenship, and says
| he wants to purchase slaves from Africa and murder the
local natives,
| you can bet that he will be shipped back immediately. What
do you
| proposed we do with the descendents of the people who did
exactly that
| a few hundred years ago?
|

Also, we need to have English as the official language.

No, we need Americans to learn foreign languages. We need Americans to
learn math and science. We need Americans to get out of their coccoon
and realize that the world around them is different from Main Street.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote

No, we need Americans to learn foreign languages. We need Americans to
learn math and science. We need Americans to get out of their coccoon and
realize that the world around them is different from Main Street.

So, Jose, what are we going to do, in our schools? How many languages are
we going to require our teachers to teach in? Should we have a different
school for each language?

America, that is USA, became what it is because it was a great melting pot,
and all
who came here made an effort to learn our ways, and contribute to our
society. Taking the approach that the rest of the US should learn the
newcomer's language does not contribute to the common good of the country.

Perhaps it is you that should get out of your cocoon.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
.
"Jose" wrote

No, we need Americans to learn foreign languages. We need Americans to
learn math and science. We need Americans to get out of their coccoon and
realize that the world around them is different from Main Street.

So, Jose, what are we going to do, in our schools? How many languages
are
we going to require our teachers to teach in? Should we have a
different
school for each language?

America, that is USA, became what it is because it was a great melting
pot,
and all
who came here made an effort to learn our ways, and contribute to our
society. Taking the approach that the rest of the US should learn the
newcomer's language does not contribute to the common good of the
country.

Perhaps it is you that should get out of your cocoon.

..
You are both right.
Americans need to learn more than one language, and more about the
world.
(These days, I'll settle if they will learn English and be able to find
the US on a World Map...)
However, a nation must have one official language. Observe Canada,
where in Quebec everything is and must be done in two languages. This
doubles the work. It's fine if a business wants to do this for its
customers, but to have all documents, etc. in multiple languages is
horribly inefficient. Especially in a real melting pot like
California. How many versions of a ballot or driver's ed book do you
need? English, Spanish, Vietnamese, Japanese, Chinese.......

And because this is r.a.p, in how many languages should the FARs be
published? Placards in the airplane???

Morgans:
So, Jose, what are we going to do, in our schools? How many languages are we going to require our teachers to teach in?

That is a red herring which addresses a different question.

Americans need to learn a foreign language. It opens many doors and is
part of a well rounded education. This is not an accomodation for
aliens, it is just good cultural sense. When you travel, you should not
expect foreigners to speak English for you. Aliens entering the US
(legally or illegally) should learn English. They should not expect us
to accomodate them any more than we should expect to be accomodated in
Germany or Hungary by English speaking storekeepers. This is a seperate
issue and a common courtesy. It works both ways.

Larry:
These American Citizens did nothing wrong. (You did say that you wanted it to be
retroactive).

Perhaps in the majority of cases that is true. But the law that
grants those born in the US US citizenship fails to address the point,
and its drafters probably overlooked the incentive it would cause if
it included those born to women who have entered the country
illegally. That needs to be fixed.

Fails to address what point? As to incentive, our ancestors (of not too
many generations ago) entered this Indian nation illegally too. We just
about wiped the natives out in our self-rightousness, and now we want to
prevent others from doing the same to us? On what moral grounds?

Also Larry:
What is
special about =children= of legitimate citizens that they should be
citizens too, while children (born here) of foreigners (including
travellers or illegal immigrants) should not?
The family who nurtures and educates these children is ostensibly law
abiding and will instill that character trait in their offspring;
those who commit a crime to enter the US have patently indicated their
willingness to flout US law, and do not deserve the benefit of it.

The assumption that legitimate citizens are law-abiding is laughable.
Shall we disenfranchise the children of =all= who commit a crime?
Especially capital crimes? Certainly this is worse than failure to
submit paperwork for citizenship while working hard at low wages doing
things that Americans wouldn't be caught dead doing.

ibid:
We are a country made up of a
diverse mix of people, and thus are subject to cultural fragmentation
pressure already.

And this makes us a strong nation.

To encourage immigrants not to learn the language
spoken in the US...

I am not encouraging that. They should learn English for the same
reasons we should learn French or Chinese.

At any rate, I fail to appreciate how enlightening the US citizenry
will have any impact on our failure to police our borders.

Policing our borders is not the problem (although it does contribute to
some problems). Enlightening the US citizenry may point this up. The
ADIZ is a form of policing a border too, it is equally silly, for
similar (underlying) reasons.

Websurf...:
However, a nation must have one official language. Observe Canada...

Canada has two official languages. That's not the same as having none.
And yes, I imagine it's a bit of a problem for them, but I'm not
Canadian so I don't really know how much of an impact it has, nor
whether it is true that the French stuff is primarily for a small group
in Quebec.

When there is =no= official language, there is no mandate for multple
languages. The government can choose whichever one it wants, based on
the will of the populace. Why is that not good enough?

Especially in a real melting pot like California.

The whole country was a melting pot once. We got by without an
'official' language fine. What's different now?

It is said that one difference is the unwillingness of new foreigners
(legal ones too) to learn new ways, and to discard old ways. I don't
know whether this is actually true, or merely xenophobic propaganda, and
I certainly don't think that foreigners should dicard old ways. Their
cultural (and language) heritage enrichens us all. I do think they
should learn the new ways (and languages) if they wish to live here.
But an "official language" doesn't address this.

What would address this is a change in our policy that every child needs
to be accomodated, and has no responsibility to accomodate himself.
This works for language, disability, religion, attitude, and anything
that can get more dollars into some district. And the underlying issue
is not with language or education, it is with money and pork.

And because this is r.a.p, in how many languages should the FARs be
published?

Does it matter? Can anybody read the excuse for English in which they
are written now? g,d

Jose




--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Sat, 01 Apr 2006 15:22:45 GMT, Jose
wrote in ::

Larry:
These American Citizens did nothing wrong. (You did say that you wanted it to be
retroactive).

Perhaps in the majority of cases that is true. But the law that
grants those born in the US US citizenship fails to address the point,
and its drafters probably overlooked the incentive it would cause if
it included those born to women who have entered the country
illegally. That needs to be fixed.

Fails to address what point?

The point that the law permits the offspring of those who have
_criminally_ entered the US to be considered US citizens. I would
expect that Congress did not consider illegal aliens when that
provision of law was drafted.

As to incentive, our ancestors (of not too
many generations ago) entered this Indian nation illegally too.

Please cite the law which you assert was broken.

My ancestors entered this country legally through Ellis Island.

We just
about wiped the natives out in our self-rightousness, and now we want to
prevent others from doing the same to us? On what moral grounds?

Your attempt to drag the immoral slaughter of native Americans by
European immigrants into this discussion is a reach too far for me.

Also Larry:
What is
special about =children= of legitimate citizens that they should be
citizens too, while children (born here) of foreigners (including
travellers or illegal immigrants) should not?
The family who nurtures and educates these children is ostensibly law
abiding and will instill that character trait in their offspring;
those who commit a crime to enter the US have patently indicated their
willingness to flout US law, and do not deserve the benefit of it.

The assumption that legitimate citizens are law-abiding is laughable.

The assumption that those who cross the US border illegally are
criminals is without question.

Shall we disenfranchise the children of =all= who commit a crime?

No. We must remove the incentive to illegal immigration by rescinding
the law that grants US citizenship to those born in the US as a result
of their mothers _illegal_ immigration into the US.

Especially capital crimes? Certainly this is worse than failure to
submit paperwork for citizenship while working hard at low wages doing
things that Americans wouldn't be caught dead doing.

I'm glad you raised the question of illegal immigrants doing work US
citizens won't do; that argument is a farce.

In the '60s and '70s the construction trades were filled with US
citizens (more than 80% of the work was performed by citizens). They
entered apprentice training, received a decent wage, and paid their
withholding taxes.

Now the building trades are dominated by illegal aliens who have no
training, work for peanuts, and are paid cash without contributing to
Social Security or Workers Compensation. They have taken good jobs
away from Americans, and reduced the quality of workmanship. Today
trained, SS and WC paying, union workers in the building trades
account for about 20% of those on the job.

Farm work is, and always has been, another matter. Those workers are
not needed in the Winter, and should migrate back home then.

The point is, if the illegal alien workers were paying into Social
Security and Workers Comp., they would price themselves out of the
labor market, and permit wages to rise to the point where US citizens
would consider working those jobs.

It is only through (further) flouting of US employment laws that
illegal aliens are able to secure employment in the US. Illegal
aliens are crooks, and should be dealt with as any criminals. If that
isn't true, our entire justice system should be ignored.

On Sat, 01 Apr 2006 16:37:13 GMT, Larry Dighera wrote:

Now the building trades are dominated by illegal aliens who have no
training, work for peanuts, and are paid cash without contributing to
Social Security or Workers Compensation.

... who gives them these jobs? Lawa abiding American companies?

They have taken good jobs
^^^^
again, American companies have taken them. [1]

away from Americans, and reduced the quality of workmanship. Today
trained, SS and WC paying, union workers in the building trades
account for about 20% of those on the job.

#m

[1] no US bashing here; this is true for almost every country.
--
"We're out of toilet paper sir!"
http://www.webcrunchers.com/crunch/Play/history/stories/toilet.html

On Sat, 01 Apr 2006 19:34:55 +0200, Martin Hotze
wrote in
::

On Sat, 01 Apr 2006 16:37:13 GMT, Larry Dighera wrote:

Now the building trades are dominated by illegal aliens who have no
training, work for peanuts, and are paid cash without contributing to
Social Security or Workers Compensation.

.. who gives them these jobs? Lawa abiding American companies?

If your competition is able to underbid you as a result of not paying
mandatory compensation (Social Security, Workers Comp., ...), if you
want to stay in business, you do the same. Failure to enforce one law
ultimately leads to failure of the entire legal system.

They have taken good jobs
^^^^
again, American companies have taken them. [1]

Only because there are lawless workers willing to accept the jobs. If
the lawless were kept out, that worker pool would not be available,
and all workers would compete for jobs on an even playing field.

away from Americans, and reduced the quality of workmanship. Today
trained, SS and WC paying, union workers in the building trades
account for about 20% of those on the job.

#m

[1] no US bashing here; this is true for almost every country.

You do realize that if an illegal shows up with a social security card and a
drivers lic the employer has no way to know they are illegal?

TO make matters worst when the Soc. Sec Administration sends the employer a
letter a year or so later that says the SS number isn't correct and that the
employer should go and "Check" with the employee to see if there was a typo.
If not and the employee shows you the ID with the known bad SS#, the
employer can take NO adverse action and everything just keeps on going like
it was. In fact to take "adverse action" is a violation of federal law.

If the employee stays around more than a year you get the same letter a year
later.

So don't say the employers want to hire illegals in many cases we don't have
a choice.


"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 Apr 2006 16:37:13 GMT, Larry Dighera wrote:

Now the building trades are dominated by illegal aliens who have no
training, work for peanuts, and are paid cash without contributing to
Social Security or Workers Compensation.

.. who gives them these jobs? Lawa abiding American companies?

They have taken good jobs
^^^^
again, American companies have taken them. [1]

away from Americans, and reduced the quality of workmanship. Today
trained, SS and WC paying, union workers in the building trades
account for about 20% of those on the job.

#m

[1] no US bashing here; this is true for almost every country.
--
"We're out of toilet paper sir!"
http://www.webcrunchers.com/crunch/Play/history/stories/toilet.html

Your attempt to drag the immoral slaughter of native Americans by
European immigrants into this discussion is a reach too far for me.

We invaded their nations, took over, and formed this one. Now we are
opposed to others "invading" ours?

Now the building trades are dominated by illegal aliens who have no
training, work for peanuts, and are paid cash without contributing to
Social Security or Workers Compensation. They have taken good jobs
away from Americans, and reduced the quality of workmanship. Today
trained, SS and WC paying, union workers in the building trades
account for about 20% of those on the job.

So, legal US citizens are inviting aliens to work here. The aliens are
accepting the invitation. Legal US citizens are choosing the resulting
buildings, probably because they are cheaper. Those legal US citizens
could just as easily pay more and buy Union-built houses if they want
to. They don't want to.

The point is, if the illegal alien workers were paying into Social
Security and Workers Comp., they would price themselves out of the
labor market, and permit wages to rise to the point where US citizens
would consider working those jobs.

That much is probably true. It points to the problem being elsewhere.

Illegal
aliens are crooks, and should be dealt with as any criminals.

That's not what you are proposing. You are proposing dealing with
=children= of illegal aliens, who are by rights US citizens by birth.

We must remove the incentive to illegal immigration by rescinding
the law that grants US citizenship to those born in the US as a result
of their mothers _illegal_ immigration into the US.

I don't think that's a good idea.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.