Getting the MOCA

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
newsBvng.35395$AB3.7625@fed1read02...

Right. You are so full of it, Stevie, it is no wonder many regulars won't
even let you suck them in to feed your tiny, bruised ego.


There are no bruises on my ego. I can and do support my positions with
logic and verifiable documentation. You cannot and do not. The regulars
here know that, I doubt it is me that they consider "full of it".

Sam Spade wrote:
Dan wrote:

What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the
Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the
services, but the MEAs are a pain....

--Dan

The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station,
nor can you legally request it. It's your responsibility to use a
Victor airway within the rules.

That's actually not true. It is legal to fly any altitude you are
assigned. The controller's minimum altitude in that area may be lower
than your MEA.

-Robert

Sam Spade wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"However, if both a MEA and a MOCA are prescribed for a particular route
or route segment, a person may operate an aircraft below the MEA down
to, but not below, the MOCA, when within 22 nautical miles of the VOR
concerned (based on the pilot's reasonable estimate of that distance)."

Sam, in controlled airspace you may request any altitude from ATC. Its
not uncommon to receive an altitude below the MEA on your chart. Often
the actual altitude the controller can assign to you depends on the
time of day (what agency is controlling the airspace at that time).
Typically in the day you have larger approach area that centers take
over at night. The centers often don't have the coverage to assign you
as low as approach. In the central valley in California is makes a
difference between 2,000 min altitude (when Lemoore is open) and 8,000
min altitude (when Oakland center takes over) in some areas.

Here is your FAR reference...
"Section 91.123: Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.
(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may
deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an
emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert
and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in
Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the
operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is
uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request
clarification from ATC."

-Robert, CFII

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...

That's actually not true. It is legal to fly any altitude you are
assigned. The controller's minimum altitude in that area may be lower
than your MEA.


What are you basing that on? FAR 91.177 does not contain the phrase "unless
otherwise authorized by ATC".

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

Sam, in controlled airspace you may request any altitude from ATC. Its
not uncommon to receive an altitude below the MEA on your chart.


The lowest altitude ATC can assign on an airway is the MOCA.



Here is your FAR reference...
"Section 91.123: Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.
(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may
deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an
emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert
and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in
Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the
operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is
uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request
clarification from ATC."


That doesn't absolve you of adherence to other applicable FARs.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...

That's actually not true. It is legal to fly any altitude you are
assigned. The controller's minimum altitude in that area may be lower
than your MEA.

That's correct. The controllers MVA/MIA may be lower than the MEA. If
that is the case then an altitude below the MEA can be assigned if
you're trying to get into VMC for example. And approach control does
not always have lower MVA's than Center has MIA's. When we work with
Salt Lake their radar antenna for our area is on the top of a mountain
in the Bighorn Mountains about 60 miles south of us here in Billings.
Their MIA is much lower than my MVA from about 30 miles south of me out
to the end of my coverage. Often times an aircraft will want lower than
I can give so I just work it out with the center and have ZLC work him
so he can stay low. Another example is the route between BIL and Cody,
WY. There is an airway with an 8400 MEA between our two VOR's. However
the centers MIA is down around 7000, mine however is 9300 on the
southern end. ZLC will often send guys this way at 7000 between the two
mountain ranges on the airway. We just coordinate and I don't work them
until about 25 miles out where my MVA allows it.

"Newps" wrote in message
...

That's correct. The controllers MVA/MIA may be lower than the MEA. If
that is the case then an altitude below the MEA can be assigned if you're
trying to get into VMC for example.

That's not correct. The MIA/MVA is the lowest altitude that can be assigned
where MEAs have not been established. Where MEAs have been established,
which is on airways, the minimum altitude is the MEA unless a MOCA applies.
Of course, the way around that is to simply clear the aircraft direct to a
fix up ahead.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0405.html#4-5-6

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

Sam, in controlled airspace you may request any altitude from ATC. Its
not uncommon to receive an altitude below the MEA on your chart.


The lowest altitude ATC can assign on an airway is the MOCA.

You're speaking in technicalities. All the controll has to do is clear
you direct to the VOR via the airway radial. I fly out West around the
Sierras and often don't have to fly at the MOCA.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

You're speaking in technicalities. All the controll has to do is clear
you direct to the VOR via the airway radial.


Yes, I already pointed that out.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:

Dan wrote:


What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the
Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the
services, but the MEAs are a pain....

--Dan


The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station,
nor can you legally request it. It's your responsibility to use a
Victor airway within the rules.


That's actually not true. It is legal to fly any altitude you are
assigned. The controller's minimum altitude in that area may be lower
than your MEA.

-Robert


A center MIA in some cases is, indeed, lower than a particular Victor
Airways MEA and, in some cases, the MIA may be higher.

And, if ATC is willing to provide the service, which includes radar
monitoring of your progress when assigned a Victor Airway below the MEA,
that is, of course legal.

But, it isn't assignment of the Victor Airway because the Victor Airway
simply doesn't exist below its MEA (or MOCA beyond 22 miles) as a matter
of regulation.

That is why the careful controller states, in such circumstances, "via
the radials of Victor such-and-such."