Leaving the community

And yes, I did watch ALL of the video-taped hearings, just like you.

The reason you saw the information differently from him is because he was
looking at the data in order to find something wrong, most Bush voters,
however, look at the data first, then make up their minds.

Cecil Chapman wrote:

Kerry was far left? How, where?

You can't be serious. Guns, gay marriage, taxes, the UN. His positions
are far left. You may not agree but they are.

Guns
He's a hunter, I'm pretty sure they use guns for that (he's not a
bowhunter). Just because one doesn't support ownership of AK-47's and
public access to armor-piercing bullets doesn't make one an enemy to gun
ownership. In fact, his record as a senator reveals that he has
consistently supported appropriate gun ownership. I own two shotguns and a
couple of rifles - don't hunt, but skeet and target shoot. Even still, I
just don't think the average citizen needs armor-piercing bullets or AK-47's
(unless you live in remote parts of Alaska grin)/.

?, gay marriage

He stated he was against 'gay marriage' - but in favor of civil unions that
allowed long-time gay couples the right to visit their partner in the
hospital, claims to benefits, etc. This is something that I would think any
reasonable person would think a long-time couple would be entitled to
(regardless of the sexual orientation. You know the funny thing about this
kind of bigotry is that it reminds me of what we would hear in the 60's
"Can't let 'coloreds' have any rights and god-forbid they should be allowed
to marry white-folk". Jeesh,,, doesn't anyone EVER learn from the lessons
of the past.

When are we going to remember the line about 'separation of church and
state'. The gay population has become the new 'coloreds' - get over your
bigotry. Live and let live. A gay couple in a civil union or marriage,,,,
whatever,,,, is no threat to my marriage. In the end it is just about two
consenting adults that care about one another and recognizing that they have
pledged to spend the rest of their lives together - that sounds pretty cool
to me. Of course the ignorant 'religious right' will refer to the Bible,
citing that quote regarding the men of Sodom. I will ask these same people
if they have ever done anything wrong with their hand, or sinned by looking
at something and point out if they haven't cut off that hand or plucked out
that eye they have already violated more than a few of the directives in the
Bible. and GASP what if your women don't keep their heads covered (as
mentioned in both the Old testament AND in the NEW Testament in some of the
books of the New Testament written by Paul). Don't even get me started on
the absurd Adam and Eve story which (if you are ignorant enough to buy into
the account) makes it necessary for all their progeny to commit incest in
order to procreate - of course that would partly explain why some people
seem to have a 'birth defect' in their unreasoned thinking. grin

Regarding the 'gay marriage' issue,,, we need to develop policy based on
fairness and reason, not on some quaint historical book with a cross on it.
Jeesh,,, we might as well just worship rocks and pray to salamanders for all
the similar good it would do. Visit a children's hospital (I have and it
will break your heart),,, the children live and die the same whether they
pray to a 'god' or speak to hamsters... and personally, if there were a
divine being, I can't possibly think of a prayer more worthy of being
granted than the prayer of some dear 4 year old in a cancer ward, just
asking to see their next birthday, hardly ever seems to be 'granted' though.
Of course the 'beauty' of any superstition is that you can go on to make
excuses why it doesn't seem to work all the time, but it is still
superstition; borne from stories of magic, evil and good spirits.
Superstition is great to study, but makes a poor ruler to measure political
policy by and make legislative policy. Let's get out of the dark ages.

, taxes

Good point,,, you're right Kerry was clearly against tax breaks for the
wealthy, the group that Bush was caught referring to during a private dinner
that was videotaped and to whom he referred to as "My own people" ---- Got
that right, W. Thank goodness there was someone looking out for the common
man (and still is,,,, as a Senator) as John Kerry.

, the UN.

YIKES! Please tell me that you have most of your teeth and that you don't
play 'Dueling Banjos' along some remote bayou? The United Nations is
LEFTIST? Do you even know the history and original purpose of the United
Nations? Read a book! What was wrong with having a consensus (and some
help) before blundering into Vietnam... OOPS I mean Iraq? Were we under
attack,,,, NO,,,,, I seem to recall Afghanistan had posed that threat but we
never finished trying to get HIM.

You may not agree but they are.

Well, YOU would know.... After all we 'know' that God is on our
side......... ooops... that's the same thinking of Bin Laden uses

jeesh

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

Cecil Chapman wrote:

Stupidly, they nominated a guy whose political positions were to the left
of Ted Kennedy's, absolutely ensuring a Bush victory.

There were many traditional Republicans out here -- myself included -- who
would have voted for a conservative Democrat in this election. But there
was just no way for any of us to vote for a guy like Kerry.

The moral for the Democrats: Don't ever nominate an ultra liberal to run
for president again.


I have often wondered how some people come to the conclusions that they do.
Jay,,, for goodness sake you sound like you are a sock-puppet mouthing the
words of his puppeteer (Bush - who was famous for the 'Kerry's just like T.
Kennedy' line). Kerry was far left? How, where? If anything he was as
centrist as Clinton was. You'd think he belonged to the Communist party to
hear the prattle that is coming off of your tongue.

So your definition of puppet is anyone who disagrees with you? He is
far left by almost any definition of the word. Pro nanny state and anti
individual rights.


Unlike the man whose words you mouth, Kerry didn't pull special favors to
get into the National Guard to avoid the draft (he VOLUNTEERED for duty),
Kerry was never arrested DUI, nor was he a cocaine user. While our boys
were ducking bullets and embroiled in a hopeless conflict - Bush was having
beer parties with the boys - occasionally remembering to show up for
National Guard duty. Also, I'll bet you never even took the time to watch
the footage of Kerry before the special hearing on Vietnam (which Bush would
refer to often, without even citing a single in-context quote from) when
Kerry spoke most eloquently without political bile of what was wrong with
the Vietnam War and how it was a mistake. He did this AFTER having been
there (something Bush in his petty cowardice, never did). He went there,
saw how things were going and recognized that we (the US) had made a
mistake. There wasn't a single misspoken word in his speech, back then (you
see, unlike you, I took it upon myself to view all the footage of the
hearing - before forming my opinions). Does integrity mean anything to you?

That's right. He volunteered for duty, took a camera to film himself,
scratched his arm to get back to the states where he could use his film
for political gain. Kind of like Michael Moore with a little more
subterfuge.


I worry about a country where there are individuals that can be so easily
molded with a political dogma and never bother to question or actively
challenge the ideas that are being presented to them. I've voted for
Democratic candidates, I've voted for Republican,,, you want to know why,
Jay? Because it is the benefit for the country that counts not 'belonging
to a club' and following their 'election charter' like some mindless
automaton.

Me too, but Jay never said that he did that.


Your candidate entered a war with an 'enemy' (Saddam) who had not attacked
us while the fellow that directly attacked us is running around, comfortably
making videos and apparently eating well. Bush claimed he was entering the
war to save the people from his cruel tyranny - but what about the massive
genocide that is going on in parts of Africa right now - I haven't heard a
peep from Bush about that, or China's human rights violations, or North
Korea's forming nuclear arsenal ---- Ooops,,,, wait,,,,, I get it
now,,,,,,,, there is no OIL in Africa where innocents are being slaughtered
every day,,, there is no OIL in North Korea.... Isn't it funny,,,, a
president who is against stem cell research (which only the ignorant don't
know) uses embryos and NOT fetuses, has BIG problems with using a frozen
embryo that must be discarded after a certain length of time,,,, BUT he will
NOT hesitate to sacrifice living, breathing, human beings in a war that had
NO business being fought (I'm talking about Iraq here). So, he will put
living human beings (including women and children involved in collateral
damage from bombings that go astray) in body bags,,, but wait! Don't ya
dare touch a frozen embryo in a 'cryogenics' freezer. Can YOU say ,
hypocrisy? God forbid, that you are your loved one needs medical aid that
some new stem cell technology could offer.

I tend to agree that we went into Iraq too soon, but then I don't know
what Bush knew or at least thought he knew. I'm amazed that people
think they they know everything the President knows. We won't know for
40 years what REALLY prompted the invasion.


If there is any hope for our country, it will be when people learn to
abandon their mindless following of party affiliation and do as I (and
others) do; simply vote for the best man/woman for the job.

I agree. Bush was clearly the best candidate of those from which we had
to choose. It didn't even require much brain power to figure that out.


But don't let intelligence or logic, pry you away from your blissful
ignorance. I hope one day, people like you will learn to challenge and
learn more about what they are told as fact FROM ANY SOURCE,,, then we will
REALLY have a great Nation.

Oh, so know disagreeing with you means one is ignorant rather than a
puppet. You are starting to sound like Kerry.


A mind is truly a terrible thing to waste..........

Yes, I feel truly sorry for what remains of yours.... :-)

Matt

Oh, so know disagreeing with you means one is ignorant rather than a
puppet. You are starting to sound like Kerry.

Unfortunately Kerry never said that. But, yes,,, one is truly ignorant, if
they mindlessly espouse the words and ideas of others without ever having
challenged those ideas, themselves.

Every thing you wrote was, literally, the same campaign rhetoric we have
heard from Bush.... The Kerry account is absurd,,, I spoke, at length, with
one of the individuals who served under Kerry. How you could defend a draft
dodger, like Bush; cowardly clinging onto the tails of daddy to get him out
of harms way and into the National Guard is something I cannot help.

Of course, some people think cocaine use, alcoholism and DUI are just fine
examples of a human being and would make FINE presidential material and
moral fiber - Obviously, my ethical bar is higher than your standard....
sad,,, but to each his own I suppose.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

Cecil Chapman wrote:



If there is any hope for our country, it will be when people learn to
abandon their mindless following of party affiliation and do as I (and
others) do; simply vote for the best man/woman for the job.

I did! He won!

JPH

"Cecil Chapman" wrote in message
m

But don't let intelligence or logic, pry you away from your blissful
ignorance.

It's interesting that the vast majority of the people I hear use this line
(and similar bumper stickers like "Think: It's patriotic.") are quite
liberal. As if they're the only ones capable of reason and logic and
challenging assumptions.

Like oil. It would have been far, far cheaper for us to simply buy the oil
from the "oil for food" program than to invade Iraq if oil were our goal.
For that matter, why not Venezuela? If oil were the goal, Venezuela is
*much* closer to the US and has a less imposing military. *Think* for a
moment and tell me it's logical for us to invade a hostile country half a
globe away for oil when we have oil exporters in our own hemisphere.

No, it sounds Moore like you're toeing the party line.

I hope one day, people like you will learn to challenge
and learn more about what they are told as fact FROM ANY SOURCE,,,
then we will REALLY have a great Nation.

Well, at least we can agree that voters should be educated on the issues and
not just follow the party line.

A mind is truly a terrible thing to waste..........

You just had to throw in that elitist attitude again. Just when you were
showing some reason, too.

Your guy lost. By a significant margin. Get over it and go flying.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

*much* closer to the US and has a less imposing military. *Think* for a
moment and tell me it's logical for us to invade a hostile country half a
globe away for oil when we have oil exporters in our own hemisphere.

Since Iraq didn't even have a missile delivery system, much less the 'WMD's,
I don't even see how they could be viewed as a hostile threat to the U.S.
The hypocrisy I'm trying to point out is; Bush keeps telling us how we are
there to free the Iraqi's from repression (there is NO doubt, that many
dissidents were brutally treated),,, but what about the mass genocide that
is going on RIGHT NOW (and has been going on for some time) in parts of
Africa. Why aren't we saving them? Could it be that there country has no
economic benefits to offer us and that,,, after all,, it is "just" black
skinned people dying over there?

Your guy lost. By a significant margin. Get over it and go flying.

Significant margin? Not quite,,,, 51 to 48 percent is hardly a national
mandate - in fact it reveals a deeply divided country.

Not to worry,,,, Congress is investigating Halliburton as we speak.........
:0)

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

"Cecil Chapman" wrote in message
m...
Stupidly, they nominated a guy whose political positions were to the
left
of Ted Kennedy's, absolutely ensuring a Bush victory.

There were many traditional Republicans out here -- myself included --
who
would have voted for a conservative Democrat in this election. But
there
was just no way for any of us to vote for a guy like Kerry.

The moral for the Democrats: Don't ever nominate an ultra liberal to
run
for president again.

I have often wondered how some people come to the conclusions that they
do.
Jay,,, for goodness sake you sound like you are a sock-puppet mouthing the
words of his puppeteer (Bush - who was famous for the 'Kerry's just like
T.
Kennedy' line). Kerry was far left? How, where? If anything he was as
centrist as Clinton was. You'd think he belonged to the Communist party
to
hear the prattle that is coming off of your tongue.

Even democrats describe Kerry as being left of T. Kennedy. It's pretty
lonely that far out.

Cecil, very eloquently written. Partisanship has almost become a
religion that gets passed down through the generations. Both republicans
and democrats are guilty of this. This is exactly what needs to change
in our country. It would be easy for a fascist to manipulate this
undying devotion to a political party and get into power.





"Cecil Chapman" wrote in
m:

Stupidly, they nominated a guy whose political positions were to the
left of Ted Kennedy's, absolutely ensuring a Bush victory.

There were many traditional Republicans out here -- myself included
-- who would have voted for a conservative Democrat in this election.
But there was just no way for any of us to vote for a guy like
Kerry.

The moral for the Democrats: Don't ever nominate an ultra liberal to
run for president again.

I have often wondered how some people come to the conclusions that
they do. Jay,,, for goodness sake you sound like you are a sock-puppet
mouthing the words of his puppeteer (Bush - who was famous for the
'Kerry's just like T. Kennedy' line). Kerry was far left? How,
where? If anything he was as centrist as Clinton was. You'd think he
belonged to the Communist party to hear the prattle that is coming off
of your tongue.

Unlike the man whose words you mouth, Kerry didn't pull special favors
to get into the National Guard to avoid the draft (he VOLUNTEERED for
duty), Kerry was never arrested DUI, nor was he a cocaine user. While
our boys were ducking bullets and embroiled in a hopeless conflict -
Bush was having beer parties with the boys - occasionally remembering
to show up for National Guard duty. Also, I'll bet you never even
took the time to watch the footage of Kerry before the special hearing
on Vietnam (which Bush would refer to often, without even citing a
single in-context quote from) when Kerry spoke most eloquently without
political bile of what was wrong with the Vietnam War and how it was a
mistake. He did this AFTER having been there (something Bush in his
petty cowardice, never did). He went there, saw how things were going
and recognized that we (the US) had made a mistake. There wasn't a
single misspoken word in his speech, back then (you see, unlike you, I
took it upon myself to view all the footage of the hearing - before
forming my opinions). Does integrity mean anything to you?

I worry about a country where there are individuals that can be so
easily molded with a political dogma and never bother to question or
actively challenge the ideas that are being presented to them. I've
voted for Democratic candidates, I've voted for Republican,,, you want
to know why, Jay? Because it is the benefit for the country that
counts not 'belonging to a club' and following their 'election
charter' like some mindless automaton.

Your candidate entered a war with an 'enemy' (Saddam) who had not
attacked us while the fellow that directly attacked us is running
around, comfortably making videos and apparently eating well. Bush
claimed he was entering the war to save the people from his cruel
tyranny - but what about the massive genocide that is going on in
parts of Africa right now - I haven't heard a peep from Bush about
that, or China's human rights violations, or North Korea's forming
nuclear arsenal ---- Ooops,,,, wait,,,,, I get it now,,,,,,,, there
is no OIL in Africa where innocents are being slaughtered every day,,,
there is no OIL in North Korea.... Isn't it funny,,,, a president who
is against stem cell research (which only the ignorant don't know)
uses embryos and NOT fetuses, has BIG problems with using a frozen
embryo that must be discarded after a certain length of time,,,, BUT
he will NOT hesitate to sacrifice living, breathing, human beings in a
war that had NO business being fought (I'm talking about Iraq here).
So, he will put living human beings (including women and children
involved in collateral damage from bombings that go astray) in body
bags,,, but wait! Don't ya dare touch a frozen embryo in a
'cryogenics' freezer. Can YOU say , hypocrisy? God forbid, that you
are your loved one needs medical aid that some new stem cell
technology could offer.

If there is any hope for our country, it will be when people learn to
abandon their mindless following of party affiliation and do as I (and
others) do; simply vote for the best man/woman for the job.

But don't let intelligence or logic, pry you away from your blissful
ignorance. I hope one day, people like you will learn to challenge
and learn more about what they are told as fact FROM ANY SOURCE,,,
then we will REALLY have a great Nation.

A mind is truly a terrible thing to waste..........