Ethanol Powered Aircraft

Grumman-581 wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:40:11 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:
How does the energy density of LNG compare to ethanol?

It's less than gasoline, but I'm not sure how it compares to
ethanol... Do you mean LNG or LPG though?

Propane has an octane rating of 110 to 120... Sounds great, right?
Unfortunately, the weight of the tanks is what would probably get
us... Our tanks would have to be built quite a bit sturdier to handle
the increased pressure... Although typical operating pressures are
around 130 psi, tanks are typically rated to over 300 psi...

With LNG, you need either higher pressure or a cooling system...


LNG, as used in the Beech system (Beech Aircraft really did the
pioneering work on LNG, of course it went nowhere....) was stored at
very low temperature at approximately atmospheric pressure in a dewar
type insulated tank. It's important to understand that methane-natural
gas- is an incondensible gas for all intents and purposes, like oxygen
and nitrogen but unlike propane, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide, ammonia
which can be stored at human-habitable ambient temperatures at
pressures feasible for storage tanks.

Methane and propane can be burned in an IC engine in similar fashion
once they are a gas, but at very different fuel-air mixtures. Methane
is approximately 108 octane and propane is in the 103-106 range
depending on exactly what's in it (LP motor fuel is nothing like
reagent grade and contains methane, butane, methanol, and lots of
other junk).

LNG would be practical but the cost of distribution would be high and
the fuel system is fairly complex, at least in the Beech system. CNG
has no range to speak of. LPG is very practical for all sort of ground
vehicles and has been done successfully in helicopters, but large
volume storage in fixed wing aircraft is problematic. A fixed wing
aircraft designed around a fuselage LP tank as a stressed member might
make some sense.

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message ups.com...

LNG, as used in the Beech system (Beech Aircraft really did the
pioneering work on LNG, of course it went nowhere....) was stored at
very low temperature at approximately atmospheric pressure in a dewar
type insulated tank. It's important to understand that methane-natural
gas- is an incondensible gas for all intents and purposes, like oxygen
and nitrogen but unlike propane, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide, ammonia
which can be stored at human-habitable ambient temperatures at
pressures feasible for storage tanks.

Methane and propane can be burned in an IC engine in similar fashion
once they are a gas, but at very different fuel-air mixtures. Methane
is approximately 108 octane and propane is in the 103-106 range
depending on exactly what's in it (LP motor fuel is nothing like
reagent grade and contains methane, butane, methanol, and lots of
other junk).

LNG would be practical but the cost of distribution would be high and
the fuel system is fairly complex, at least in the Beech system. CNG
has no range to speak of. LPG is very practical for all sort of ground
vehicles and has been done successfully in helicopters, but large
volume storage in fixed wing aircraft is problematic. A fixed wing
aircraft designed around a fuselage LP tank as a stressed member might
make some sense.


For those of you who have not yet decided that this guy Ludwig is a dufus and / or a troll.... natural gas is not
methane. Although methane makes up approximately 96% of the local natural gas here, there are many other
constituents. Several of the products that he says are stored at human habitable temperatures... well lets just say
that he is wrong at least on the ones that I am most familiar with. For instance, ammonia is stored at temperatures
around -28 degrees f. As a matter of fact, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and ammonia are all cryogenically stored. BTW,
we condense methane at -282 degrees f. at my work place 24 hours a day as a step in recovery hydrogen for reuse.

Joe Schneider
N8437R



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For those of you who have not yet decided that this guy Ludwig is a dufus and / or a troll.... natural gas is not
methane. Although methane makes up approximately 96% of the local natural gas here, there are many other
constituents.

96% is "most", most of the time. Where I'm from.

Several of the products that he says are stored at human habitable
temperatures... well lets just say
that he is wrong at least on the ones that I am most familiar with. For instance, ammonia is stored at temperatures
around -28 degrees f. As a matter of fact, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and ammonia are all cryogenically stored.

Nitrogen must be cryogenic to be in liquid form. CO2 and NH3 are
stored in regular steel tanks and when both gas and liquid are in the
tank, and the tank is allowed to sit with no flow, the tank assumes
ambient temperature (or higher in the sun) and the pressure inside is a
direct function of the product's temperature. Same with Freon (most
kinds), propane, etc. Nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, helium, are a liquid
at earth temperatures only under freakish pressures. There is said to
be solid methane at the bottom of the ocean in certain places but what
is the absolute pressure at those depths? About ten thousand psi is the
practical limit for pressure vessels. That's why these gases are
transported cryogenically or as _gases_ in the 2-3000 psi welding type
cylinders.

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message ups.com...

For those of you who have not yet decided that this guy Ludwig is a dufus and / or a troll.... natural gas is not
methane. Although methane makes up approximately 96% of the local natural gas here, there are many other
constituents.

96% is "most", most of the time. Where I'm from.

Several of the products that he says are stored at human habitable
temperatures... well lets just say
that he is wrong at least on the ones that I am most familiar with. For instance, ammonia is stored at
temperatures
around -28 degrees f. As a matter of fact, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and ammonia are all cryogenically stored.

Nitrogen must be cryogenic to be in liquid form. CO2 and NH3 are
stored in regular steel tanks and when both gas and liquid are in the
tank, and the tank is allowed to sit with no flow, the tank assumes
ambient temperature (or higher in the sun) and the pressure inside is a
direct function of the product's temperature. Same with Freon (most
kinds), propane, etc. Nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, helium, are a liquid
at earth temperatures only under freakish pressures. There is said to
be solid methane at the bottom of the ocean in certain places but what
is the absolute pressure at those depths? About ten thousand psi is the
practical limit for pressure vessels. That's why these gases are
transported cryogenically or as _gases_ in the 2-3000 psi welding type
cylinders.


You are in way over your head Ludwig. I've worked with all these gases for 28 years, in well, let's just say very
large quantities. I do this stuff for a living. You don't have a clue. The more you try to defend your incorrect
drivel the deeper you get. Be a man and back off and admit you don't know what you are talking about.



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"JJS" jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net wrote

You are in way over your head Ludwig. I've worked with all these gases
for 28 years, in well, let's just say very
large quantities. I do this stuff for a living. You don't have a clue.
The more you try to defend your incorrect
drivel the deeper you get.

God forbid that I would in any way defend anything that this nutjob says,
but I think there is incomplete statements on both your parts going on here.

You store these gasses at low temps, because it is impractical to store them
at the crazy pressures that they would have to be, if kept at room
temperature. The way things are done, in a real world? Very cold, with
some pressure to help out, so you get a you are right, on this one.

Yes, as he said, they can be kept at room temperatures. Almost anything can
be. Practical? No. Wrongly stated? No.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message ...

"JJS" jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net wrote

You are in way over your head Ludwig. I've worked with all these gases
for 28 years, in well, let's just say very
large quantities. I do this stuff for a living. You don't have a clue.
The more you try to defend your incorrect
drivel the deeper you get.

God forbid that I would in any way defend anything that this nutjob says,
but I think there is incomplete statements on both your parts going on here.

You store these gasses at low temps, because it is impractical to store them
at the crazy pressures that they would have to be, if kept at room
temperature. The way things are done, in a real world? Very cold, with
some pressure to help out, so you get a you are right, on this one.

Yes, as he said, they can be kept at room temperatures. Almost anything can
be. Practical? No. Wrongly stated? No.
--
Jim in NC

Sorry for the late reply, Jim. We had to restart the plant and I was working some long hours. What you say above is
correct. But some things he has stated, not included above, are totally incorrect. I'm just sick of Ludwig making
blanket statements that are only partially correct so that he can forward his troll agenda. Some of his statements
are correct enough that some people "partially in the know" might accept them as gospel. That was my sole reason for
responding to the group. I try hard not to fall for troll bait If you'll go back and read his drivel, he says
things like, "you can't condense methane". Yeah right! He makes statements about the way products are stored when
there are multiple ways to store them. I tried to reply that in my experience he was wrong. There are other ways.
He attacks Van and Rutan, two of the icons of the experimental aircraft movement. He calls Van's keen observations
blather. Another "for instance": His assertion that natural gas is methane: Natural gas varies in composition
depending on a host of factors including what processing it has gone through, if any, and also from gas well to gas
well. It is not "only" methane: Here is an example. From one of our supply pipe lines, on August 9th it was 96.00
mole % methane, .43% carbon dioxide, .08 helium, .0012 i-butane, .0012 n-butane, 2.4621% ethane, .9300 nitrogen,
..0957 propane. Another pipeline was 95.76% methane, .00220 C6+, .64 carbon dioxide, .04 helium, 2.7004 ethane, .74
nitrogen, .1101 propane, .0023 i-butane, .0020 n-butane. So what? He replied that 96% is mostly methane. Each of
these constituents affects the BTU value of the gas. The first pipeline was running 1017 BTU's and the second 1027
BTU's. This is a huge factor not only in using the gas as a fuel but also in process it into other commodities such
as ammonia, methanol, carbon dioxide, etc.



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On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 09:52:03 -0500, "JJS" jschneider@remove socks
cebridge.net wrote:


"Morgans" wrote in message ...

"JJS" jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net wrote

You are in way over your head Ludwig. I've worked with all these gases
for 28 years, in well, let's just say very
large quantities. I do this stuff for a living. You don't have a clue.
The more you try to defend your incorrect
drivel the deeper you get.

God forbid that I would in any way defend anything that this nutjob says,
but I think there is incomplete statements on both your parts going on here.

You store these gasses at low temps, because it is impractical to store them
at the crazy pressures that they would have to be, if kept at room

I worked for a company that used a *LOT* of H2. Probably as much or
even more than NASA. We had a very large tank farm which "as I
recall" had 12 tanks. (This was well over 20 years ago so I may be
mis-remembering some of it) We had a lot of tankers loaded with H2
coming into that place.

Of course the tanks were insulated, but we used the pressure of the
vaporizing H2 to move the stuff. N2 for us was a contaminant.

Cold? I noted some liquid running off one of the fittings and figured
it was way too cold for water, but it sure looked like it. The tank
farm operator remarked; "Water? No, it's way too cold for that. That
stuff running off is liquid Oxygen".

temperature. The way things are done, in a real world? Very cold, with
some pressure to help out, so you get a you are right, on this one.

For us the only alternative for pressure besides the evaporating
liquid H2 was Helium (analysis grade which I believe is five nines)
and even with all those tanks the stuff didn't evaporate fast enough
go keep the pressure up.

Purity was our problem as we were working at less than one part per
billion. That is difficult to maintain.


Yes, as he said, they can be kept at room temperatures. Almost anything can
be. Practical? No. Wrongly stated? No.

Times change though.The output of that plant is many times what it
used to be and they have gone through two very large expansions since
they became the world's largest supplier of that product. Currently
(according to the local paper) they are looking "world wide" for a new
site to build another plant and it's my understanding there are a lot
of places that want them.

With improved recovery techniques and some "other processes" that
tank farm has disappeared. Last I saw there was only one small tank.
Probably 5 to 10,000 gallons give or take a bunch as I don't know how
much they kept in there. Stuff that was byproduct is reused in one
form or another. Recovery techniques have dropped the H2 use to a tiny
fraction of what it was at one time.

However I would add that there is a way to keep a lot of H2 in a
relatively small space at room temperature that is "physically
practical". Unfortunately it takes a lot of some very expensive
material that is also toxic. They can use metal Hydrides as "metal
sponges" and the things do hold a tremendous amount of H2. Also a
ruptured tank is not a fire safety issue as you normally have to use a
small heater to get the H2 out.

I believe these are the same type of Hydrides they use in batteries
which are a disposal problem. They aren't supposed to go in the
garbage, but being sold to the general public I'd bet way more than
half of those batteries do end up in the trash. Think of what NiMH
batteries cost and then think of a chunk of that stuff the size of the
gas tank in a car.

A bit of history. I started working for that company about the time
they moved from using an old two story farm house for an office and a
large cement block garage for production to a new office building plus
a new production facility about the size of a basketball court.

With the first expansion we were using so much H2 we installed the
World's largest electrolytic cell for generating H2 as there wasn't
enough liquid H2 capacity in the US to supply us and NASA. For some
strange reason they gave NASA a higher priority than us.

You should have heard that cell. When running at capacity it was
deafening. The O2 was just vented to the atmosphere and that was a
*lot* of O2. It was sorta like standing in front of an F-16 getting
ready to taxi. That cell was dismantled not long after sufficient
quantities of liquid H2 became available.

I worked there 26 years, quit and went back to college to earn my
degree. Never went back except in an official capacity to consult on
a computer system as they were a subsidiary for the corporation I
ended up working for after graduating.




--
Jim in NC

Sorry for the late reply, Jim. We had to restart the plant and I was working some long hours. What you say above is
correct. But some things he has stated, not included above, are totally incorrect. I'm just sick of Ludwig making
blanket statements that are only partially correct so that he can forward his troll agenda. Some of his statements
are correct enough that some people "partially in the know" might accept them as gospel. That was my sole reason for
responding to the group. I try hard not to fall for troll bait If you'll go back and read his drivel, he says
things like, "you can't condense methane". Yeah right! He makes statements about the way products are stored when
there are multiple ways to store them. I tried to reply that in my experience he was wrong. There are other ways.
He attacks Van and Rutan, two of the icons of the experimental aircraft movement. He calls Van's keen observations
blather. Another "for instance": His assertion that natural gas is methane: Natural gas varies in composition
depending on a host of factors including what processing it has gone through, if any, and also from gas well to gas
well. It is not "only" methane: Here is an example. From one of our supply pipe lines, on August 9th it was 96.00
mole % methane, .43% carbon dioxide, .08 helium, .0012 i-butane, .0012 n-butane, 2.4621% ethane, .9300 nitrogen,
.0957 propane. Another pipeline was 95.76% methane, .00220 C6+, .64 carbon dioxide, .04 helium, 2.7004 ethane, .74
nitrogen, .1101 propane, .0023 i-butane, .0020 n-butane. So what? He replied that 96% is mostly methane. Each of
these constituents affects the BTU value of the gas. The first pipeline was running 1017 BTU's and the second 1027
BTU's. This is a huge factor not only in using the gas as a fuel but also in process it into other commodities such
as ammonia, methanol, carbon dioxide, etc.



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Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

JJS wrote:

snip
You are in way over your head Ludwig. I've worked with all these gases for 28 years, in well, let's just say very
large quantities. I do this stuff for a living. You don't have a clue. The more you try to defend your incorrect
drivel the deeper you get. Be a man and back off and admit you don't know what you are talking about.




Okay smartypants, why is propane sold as a liquid in low pressure
tanks and nitrogen as a GAS in high pressure tanks or a LIQUID, at cryo
temperatures in dewars???