Crashing on takeoff... how odd

Newps wrote:

Not sure of the exact amount but that is a certification requirement. My
182 got pretty sporting if you had to do a go around. Since I mostly
flew alone it was a nose heavy airplane and I always landed with full
nose up trim. Not sure how to characterize how much force was required.
Let's say significant.

I don't know the exact force either, but I could easily hold down the
nose of my 182 with full nose-up trim and full throttle. I'd guess
30-40 lbs of force, but that is just a guess. I can bench press
probably 160 lbs (I haven't lifted in 20 years so I'm getting wimpy),
which is 80 lbs per arm. I'm sure I wasn't using even half of my arm
strength to hold the nose at climb attitude hence my guess of it being
no more than 40 lbs and likely less than that.

Matt

Newps wrote:

Full nose up trim is immediately apparent on the application of power.
The fact that he let it get away from him says it all. It doesn't take
a lot of forward stick after takeoff to put the nose where it needs to be.


One more non-aviator question here - is upset recovery training not
normally part of the licensing procedure? What Larry described seems a
good example of upset.

Ramapriya

wrote in message
oups.com...
Newps wrote:

Full nose up trim is immediately apparent on the application of power.
The fact that he let it get away from him says it all. It doesn't take
a lot of forward stick after takeoff to put the nose where it needs to
be.


One more non-aviator question here - is upset recovery training not
normally part of the licensing procedure? What Larry described seems a
good example of upset.

Ramapriya


In the United States the emphasis is on Angle of Attack Awareness and Stall
Avoidance.

You do fly both power on (take off / departure) stalls and power off
(landing) stalls as well as turning stalls but full on unusual attitude
recovery (in the sense in which I think you are referring) is not a part of
the private pilot sylabus, no.

Experiencing the pitch authority of full up trim at high power settings and
how abrupt can be a Trim Stall should, IMO, be emphasized more stridently
than it is (at least in the King Cessna course.)

Jay B

Part 23 establishes maximum stick force requirements. It does not take
superhuman strength to overcome full nose-up trim on takeoff.

Bob Gardner

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Larry Dighera wrote:



I once witnessed a Cessna C-172 crash on takeoff at Santa Monica
Airport (KSMO) in the early '70s. The aircraft rotated, and rocketed
skyward at a very high angle, stalled, and nosed into the runway. The
pilot escaped with a broken finger. The cause was a result of the
trim being set wrong. Don't forget your check list.



Full nose up trim is immediately apparent on the application of power. The
fact that he let it get away from him says it all. It doesn't take a lot
of forward stick after takeoff to put the nose where it needs to be.

Bob Gardner wrote:

Part 23 establishes maximum stick force requirements. It does not take
superhuman strength to overcome full nose-up trim on takeoff.

But part 23 was written before we all became overweight and out of shape
couch potatoes! :-)

Matt

Newps wrote:


Larry Dighera wrote:



I once witnessed a Cessna C-172 crash on takeoff at Santa Monica
Airport (KSMO) in the early '70s. The aircraft rotated, and rocketed
skyward at a very high angle, stalled, and nosed into the runway. The
pilot escaped with a broken finger. The cause was a result of the
trim being set wrong. Don't forget your check list.



Full nose up trim is immediately apparent on the application of power.
The fact that he let it get away from him says it all. It doesn't take
a lot of forward stick after takeoff to put the nose where it needs to be.


We had a Duchess crash for the same reason...I've never taken off with
full nose up trim, but I'd imagine that if they could have pushed the
nose down, they would have, correct?

Emily wrote:




We had a Duchess crash for the same reason...I've never taken off with
full nose up trim, but I'd imagine that if they could have pushed the
nose down, they would have, correct?

No. You can't get a spam can certified if you can't overcome full nose
up or down trim. This is the second one I've seen. A couple years ago
a Skymaster crashed near here for the same reason. Pilot left full nose
up trim after landing, then tried to takeoff. Airplane rotated way too
soon and mushed off the end of the runway. Everybody walked away, plane
totalled. Pilot got alarmed by the out of trim condition and became a
spectator at that point. Dumbass.

Newps wrote:


Emily wrote:




We had a Duchess crash for the same reason...I've never taken off with
full nose up trim, but I'd imagine that if they could have pushed the
nose down, they would have, correct?

No. You can't get a spam can certified if you can't overcome full nose
up or down trim. This is the second one I've seen. A couple years ago
a Skymaster crashed near here for the same reason. Pilot left full nose
up trim after landing, then tried to takeoff. Airplane rotated way too
soon and mushed off the end of the runway. Everybody walked away, plane
totalled. Pilot got alarmed by the out of trim condition and became a
spectator at that point. Dumbass.

I just checked the report, and it appears that trim was at 10 degrees in
the Duchess case. By the time I did my multi training at the same
airport, we were still in a state of paranoia over elevator trim (crash
killed three people), so it was something I always checked. How much
would a typical light twin pitch up on takeoff with the trim set like
that? I know myself, I usually ended up trimming down on climb because
the nose was hard to hold down (although I never flew the 76)

Larry Dighera wrote:

On 27 Aug 2006 08:39:44 -0700, wrote in
. com:


I was mentioning
how illogical a crash-shortly-after-takeoff is, given that beyond V1
takeoff can safely be continued even with just one good engine.


I once witnessed a Cessna C-172 crash on takeoff at Santa Monica
Airport (KSMO) in the early '70s. The aircraft rotated, and rocketed
skyward at a very high angle, stalled, and nosed into the runway. The
pilot escaped with a broken finger. The cause was a result of the
trim being set wrong. Don't forget your check list.

I'd say in a 172 that the cause was a pilot who didn't know how to fly
the airplane. It isn't that hard to overcome the trim on a 172. There
are probably airplanes where this isn't the case, but the 172 isn't one
of them.

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
It isn't that hard to overcome the trim on a 172. There are probably
airplanes where this isn't the case, but the 172 isn't one of them.

In theory, it should be possible on any plane. 14 CFR 23.677 (d) says:

"It must be demonstrated that the airplane is safely controllable and that
the pilot can perform all maneuvers and operations necessary to effect a
safe landing following any probable powered trim system runaway that
reasonably might be expected in service, allowing for appropriate time
delay after pilot recognition of the trim system runaway. The demonstration
must be conducted at critical airplane weights and center of gravity
positions."