Class A airspace

wrote:
Guess we will never know...

Airspace in question is 500-17999 07:15 to 23:30 (local) 7 days a week
including holidays.

If you mean R4816S, I've received permission several times to enter on
weekends, and at least once on a weekday. The Fallon folks pretty much
fly Monday through Friday only. What contest?

NOW, BOYS!

Perhaps class A and R has nothing to do with gliders losing use of
airspace. See posts about the Minden midair. Nobody badly hurt, that's
fantastic!

Jim

Yes, and fortunately the accident apparently did not happen in Class-A
airspace. If something like this did happen in Class-A, the
repurcussions could be wide ranging. Even if the glider pilot thinks
he's at 17,999' the FDR and ATC tapes are going to be given more
weight. So this points out the need to leave some buffer altitude as
well. You are not goiing to get the benefit of the doubt.

JS wrote:
NOW, BOYS!

Perhaps class A and R has nothing to do with gliders losing use of
airspace. See posts about the Minden midair. Nobody badly hurt, that's
fantastic!

Jim

Doug Haluza wrote:
Yes, and fortunately the accident apparently did not happen in Class-A
airspace. If something like this did happen in Class-A, the
repurcussions could be wide ranging. Even if the glider pilot thinks
he's at 17,999' the FDR and ATC tapes are going to be given more
weight. So this points out the need to leave some buffer altitude as
well. You are not goiing to get the benefit of the doubt.

I disagree about the repercussion issue. If a glider was involved in a
midair in Class A airspace without appropriate clearance, then the pilot
is in clear violation of the FARs, subject to enforcement action
(assuming he survives), and there is no need for further rule making.

It is precisely this sort of situation, a conflict between aircraft
legally present in the same airspace, that sometimes leads to
undesirable (from our perspective) changes in airspace classification
and rules. What is truly fortunate was that it was not an airliner...

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:

It is precisely this sort of situation, a conflict between aircraft
legally present in the same airspace, that sometimes leads to
undesirable (from our perspective) changes in airspace classification
and rules. What is truly fortunate was that it was not an airliner...

A couple of years ago, there was a midair over the French alps (possibly
the best known (as well as the best) glider area in Europe), between an
airliner which approached Lyon (France) and a glider. (I forgot further
details.) Luckily, both aircraft landed safely. It was clearly the
airliners fault, as the collision occured in airspace class E and the
glider had the right of way. Problem was, the airliner pilots thought
they were in class D, because the Jeppesen map which they used was wrong.

Anyway, before this accident, all airspace over the French alps was
class E up to FL195, i.e. freely usable by everyone without a clearance.
As a consequence of this accident, it's no more.

Stefan

The restriction of the airspace in the French Alps has nothing to do with
this accident which happened over the Massif Central (an A319 inbound
Montpellier hitting a Grob Twin III).

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Marc Ramsey wrote:

It is precisely this sort of situation, a conflict between aircraft
legally present in the same airspace, that sometimes leads to undesirable
(from our perspective) changes in airspace classification and rules.
What is truly fortunate was that it was not an airliner...

A couple of years ago, there was a midair over the French alps (possibly
the best known (as well as the best) glider area in Europe), between an
airliner which approached Lyon (France) and a glider. (I forgot further
details.) Luckily, both aircraft landed safely. It was clearly the
airliners fault, as the collision occured in airspace class E and the
glider had the right of way. Problem was, the airliner pilots thought they
were in class D, because the Jeppesen map which they used was wrong.

Anyway, before this accident, all airspace over the French alps was class
E up to FL195, i.e. freely usable by everyone without a clearance. As a
consequence of this accident, it's no more.

Stefan

Bert Willing schrieb:
The restriction of the airspace in the French Alps has nothing to do with
this accident which happened over the Massif Central (an A319 inbound
Montpellier hitting a Grob Twin III).

Ah Didon, mais on parle des évènements différentes!

I've looked it up: It wasn't actually a midair, but a near miss ... very
near to be precise, estimated separation was 20m! Here is the report:
http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/1999/f-...f-ie990605.pdf
(for our friends on the other side of the pond: sorry, available in
French only.)

The crucial remark is on page 11:


RECOMMANDATIONS DE SÉCURITÉ

1. ... En conséquence, le BEA renouvelle les deux premières
ecommandations émises à la suite de l'abordage du 12 février 1999 dans
la région de Montpellier: [that was the midair you mentioned]

....

1) la mise en place de classes d'espace adaptées, ou d'espaces
aériens spécifiques, assurant la protection des itinéraires IFR publiés;


And that is what they did.

Stefan