descent below minimums

On 3 Jan 2005 23:18:15 -0800, "hsm" wrote:

Can I descent below minimums on an intermediate stepdown segment of an
IFR approach if I have the runway enviroment in sight?
On a very steep approach such as the backcourse loc-A to Santa
Maria,CA, I would like to start descending below 1700 feet prior to
reaching PATER, in order to facilitate a more comfortable decent in
VMC. Legal or do I first need a visual approach clearance?

I believe you can so long as you meet all the requirements of 14 CFR
91.175.

An approach like the one you cite is purposely published without
straight-in minimums because the descent angle exceeds some FAA number for
an allowable straight-in approach. In my Mooney, I don't think a 500-600
ft/min descent is unreasonable, but YMMV. I prefer a steep approach in
order to allow for reaching the airport in the event of engine failure.

If it were a strange airport, I'd certainly want better than MVFR to
descend below 1700' at PATER.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On 3 Jan 2005 23:18:15 -0800, "hsm" wrote:

Can I descent below minimums on an intermediate stepdown segment of an
IFR approach if I have the runway enviroment in sight?
On a very steep approach such as the backcourse loc-A to Santa
Maria,CA, I would like to start descending below 1700 feet prior to
reaching PATER, in order to facilitate a more comfortable decent in
VMC. Legal or do I first need a visual approach clearance?

If you are executing a published IAAP, there is no "visual approach
clearance".

You need 3 things to descend below the MDA (DA),they a (a) runway
environment in sight (b)can descend using normal maneuvers, normal
rates of descent (c) the flight visibility specified in the approach.

In article om,
"hsm" wrote:

Can I descent below minimums on an intermediate stepdown segment of an
IFR approach if I have the runway enviroment in sight?
On a very steep approach such as the backcourse loc-A to Santa
Maria,CA, I would like to start descending below 1700 feet prior to
reaching PATER, in order to facilitate a more comfortable decent in
VMC. Legal or do I first need a visual approach clearance?

I've read the other responses to this, and I'm going to chime in with a
weasel answer:

1) I'm not really sure if it's technically legal or not.

2) Unless you crashed, nobody would ever notice or care

3) The stepdown is there for a reason -- to keep you off the hills under
the approach path. When deciding whether to descend, I'd be more
worried about whether you had the hills in sight than if you had the
runway in sight. For example, at night, the runway might be lit up like
a christmas tree, but the hills might be invisible.

4) It's a 6000 foot runway; what looks like a steep approach to the
threshold isn't quite so steep an approach to the middle of the runway,
and you'd still have 3000 feet left (twice what you need in any spam
can).

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 09:16:52 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

For example, at night, the runway might be lit up like
a christmas tree, but the hills might be invisible.


If you can see the runway, there ain't no hill between you and it.

In article ,
wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 09:16:52 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

For example, at night, the runway might be lit up like
a christmas tree, but the hills might be invisible.


If you can see the runway, there ain't no hill between you and it.

But there can still be a hill below for you to descend into. Your
eyeballs can still have clear line of sight to the runway lights while
your landing gear is dragging through the treetops.

On 4 Jan 2005 10:02:48 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote:

But there can still be a hill below for you to descend into. Your
eyeballs can still have clear line of sight to the runway lights while
your landing gear is dragging through the treetops.


In which case you should hear quite a racket, and an altitude change
would be advisable.

Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 09:16:52 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:


For example, at night, the runway might be lit up like
a christmas tree, but the hills might be invisible.


If you can see the runway, there ain't no hill between you and it.


But there can still be a hill below for you to descend into. Your
eyeballs can still have clear line of sight to the runway lights while
your landing gear is dragging through the treetops.

Or the runway could be in a valley with a high tension line across it...


Matt

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:09:11 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 09:16:52 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:


For example, at night, the runway might be lit up like
a christmas tree, but the hills might be invisible.


If you can see the runway, there ain't no hill between you and it.


But there can still be a hill below for you to descend into. Your
eyeballs can still have clear line of sight to the runway lights while
your landing gear is dragging through the treetops.

Or the runway could be in a valley with a high tension line across it...


Matt


Like I said.

If you can see the runway, there ain't no hill between you and it.

Matt Whiting wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 09:16:52 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:


For example, at night, the runway might be lit up like
a christmas tree, but the hills might be invisible.


If you can see the runway, there ain't no hill between you and it.


But there can still be a hill below for you to descend into. Your
eyeballs can still have clear line of sight to the runway lights while
your landing gear is dragging through the treetops.

Or the runway could be in a valley with a high tension line across it...

Matt

That can occur on any approach with not less than one mile visibility. The
visual segment has a 34:1 clearance criteria and a 20:1 clearance criteria.
But, either or both can be violated. If the 20:1 is violated and the
approach was updated in the past few years, the minimums (and sometimes the
entire IAP itself) will be "NA" at night.

Roy Smith wrote:

But there can still be a hill below for you to descend into. Your
eyeballs can still have clear line of sight to the runway lights while
your landing gear is dragging through the treetops.

If the lights ever go out, CLIMB!