Lidle crash: who is wrong?

Confusing reports on the Lidle crash-- Mayor Bloomberg, sounding
utterly confident in his sources, says the plane took off from
Teterboro, circled the Statue of Liberty, flew up (south-to-north) the
East River, then into the building. A few minutes earlier, a CNN
reporter using PASSUR asserted that after taking off the plane tracked
straight west-to-east over Central Park, turned right and followed the
East River (north-to-south) and suddenly banked right into the
building. Given that the impact was on the building's north face, the
latter account seems more likely.

Anyone have newer info?

--
B

Blasto wrote:

A few minutes earlier, a CNN
reporter using PASSUR asserted that after taking off the plane tracked
straight west-to-east over Central Park, turned right and followed the
East River (north-to-south) and suddenly banked right into the
building. Given that the impact was on the building's north face, the
latter account seems more likely.

That is not how the Passur data depicts the several minutes prior to the
crash. The Mayor's account is what is depicted.

--
Peter

Peter R. wrote:
Blasto wrote:

A few minutes earlier, a CNN
reporter using PASSUR asserted that after taking off the plane tracked
straight west-to-east over Central Park, turned right and followed the
East River (north-to-south) and suddenly banked right into the
building. Given that the impact was on the building's north face, the
latter account seems more likely.

That is not how the Passur data depicts the several minutes prior to the
crash. The Mayor's account is what is depicted.

--
Peter

Well, one thing that's needed is a definite time for the crash. If you
set Passur for 2:38 you'll see a plane following the CNN account
(although CNN has now switched to the Mayor's version)... In fact if
you just stare at Passur for a little while you'll see planes all over
the place dropping from the display where there are no airports.

So assuming the up-the-East-River account is correct, how did Lidle (or
the instructor) manage to hit the north face of the building? That
seems an impossibly tight turn.

--
B

oops.. I meant 2:28. Then at 2:30 you'll see a plane disappear pretty
much right 72nd and the river.

--
B

"Blasto" wrote in message
ups.com...
So assuming the up-the-East-River account is correct, how did Lidle (or
the instructor) manage to hit the north face of the building? That
seems an impossibly tight turn.

It's not impossibly tight if it's planned and executed properly. In fact,
there's no (legal) choice but to make the turn. The VFR corridor over the
East River ends at the northern tip of Roosevelt Island. At that point, you
either make a U-turn or bust LGA's Class B (unless you have a clearance).

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote:
It's not impossibly tight if it's planned and executed properly. In fact,
there's no (legal) choice but to make the turn. The VFR corridor over the
East River ends at the northern tip of Roosevelt Island. At that point, you
either make a U-turn or bust LGA's Class B (unless you have a clearance).

Or land.

Gary Drescher wrote:
It's not impossibly tight if it's planned and executed properly. In fact,
there's no (legal) choice but to make the turn. The VFR corridor over the
East River ends at the northern tip of Roosevelt Island. At that point, you
either make a U-turn or bust LGA's Class B (unless you have a clearance).

thanks for the very insightful post.

Blasto wrote:

In fact if
you just stare at Passur for a little while you'll see planes all over
the place dropping from the display where there are no airports.

Aircraft appear and disappear in Passur presumably due the sporadic radar
returns caused by the low altitudes flown by aircraft in those VFR
corridors combined with the tall buildings of the area.

So assuming the up-the-East-River account is correct, how did Lidle (or
the instructor) manage to hit the north face of the building? That
seems an impossibly tight turn.

As Gary indicated, aircraft flying up the east side of Manhattan in
the VFR corridor are required to turn around and fly back to the south,
as the corridor ends around the north end of Roosevelt Island.

How does an aircraft hit the north face of a building along the river
there? One possibility is that the pilot lost control of the aircraft
during the turn, say due to a stall. Another possibility is that the pilot
misjudged the point at which to begin the turn.

--
Peter

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
As Gary indicated, aircraft flying up the east side of Manhattan in
the VFR corridor are required to turn around and fly back to the south,
as the corridor ends around the north end of Roosevelt Island.

How does an aircraft hit the north face of a building along the river
there? One possibility is that the pilot lost control of the aircraft
during the turn, say due to a stall. Another possibility is that the
pilot
misjudged the point at which to begin the turn.

My guess is that they flew too fast and failed to remember that the turn
radius increases with the square of the airspeed. When they saw the
buildings coming, they banked steeply, causing them to descend and possibly
stall. (A witness on the ground who is also a pilot reported seeing the
plane in an unusually steep bank just before impact.)

--Gary

112 mph, 30 deg bank = 3000 ft turn diameter
112 mph, 45 deg bank = 2000 ft turn diameter
112 mph, 60 deg bank = 1000 ft turn diameter

So, if the "canyon" is 2000 ft wide, and they were traveling
up the middle, incredibly difficult to make the turn safely.

www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html