Lidle crash: who is wrong?

"Blasto" wrote in message
oups.com...
You folks
in your flying machines represent that to me, and any assault on your
freedoms would need to be justified by a much denser history of mishaps
than exists to date.

Thanks for the eloquent post! Best wishes to you.

Maybe there
should not be seams in VFR corridors obliging pilots to negotiate
high-skill turns over ultra-populated ground?

If our speculations about a too-wide turn are indeed correct, it might point
to the need for additional training on that issue (although even on the East
River--which is about the tightest turn I know of that a pilot would
ordinarily need to make other than in mountain flying--I'm not aware of any
other crashes caused by the tight turn).

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:

Maybe there
should not be seams in VFR corridors obliging pilots to negotiate
high-skill turns over ultra-populated ground?

If our speculations about a too-wide turn are indeed correct, it might point
to the need for additional training on that issue (although even on the East
River--which is about the tightest turn I know of that a pilot would
ordinarily need to make other than in mountain flying--I'm not aware of any
other crashes caused by the tight turn).

Well a lot of people drop it in making too tight base-to-final turns.
Balling it up on the ground just doesn't make the news like hitting
a building in the process.

To the pilots who fly the area regularly-

That turn looks to me like it needs to be handled as a base-final
turn... get flaps out 10 (maybe even 25) and stabalized at ~60 knots
(my pa28-140 speeds), and make a nice crisp pattern turn (I know, most
pattern turns are 90 then 90, but you get my drift).

Is this a safe assessment?

An A.net guy calculated his speed based on the returns, he was doing
almost 120 knots up the east river until immediately before the turn,
then he abruptly slowed to 90... we were wondering if he would have had
time to get the plane stabalized before initiating the turn.

At that point, all he needed was a bit of poor pilotage (something I
myself must admit too on occasion)- he initiates a tight turn too
quickly, does not hold enough back preassure on the yoke, finds himself
suddenly in a skyscraper forest, panics- firewall the throttle and turn
hard to avoid a looming monolith in front of him... stall... and
physics does the rest.

Blasto wrote:
Confusing reports on the Lidle crash-- Mayor Bloomberg, sounding
utterly confident in his sources, says the plane took off from
Teterboro, circled the Statue of Liberty, flew up (south-to-north) the
East River, then into the building. A few minutes earlier, a CNN
reporter using PASSUR asserted that after taking off the plane tracked
straight west-to-east over Central Park, turned right and followed the
East River (north-to-south) and suddenly banked right into the
building. Given that the impact was on the building's north face, the
latter account seems more likely.

Anyone have newer info?

--
B

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
Matt Barrow wrote:


Very much along those lines...
http://boortz.com/nuze/200610/10122006.html#crash

Neil Boortz is a 2500 hr pilot.

Also, a member of a couple airport authorities, now and in the past.



Instructor just identified. California-based instructor
(who also held an A&P cert.).

Won't make a damn bit of difference to the shrills (see article above).

Peter R. wrote:

Blasto wrote:


Thanks Peter and others for your answers. I'm no pilot, just trying to
understand. Sadly I'm incapacitated by effects of
cancer/cancer-treatment


Wow, I am very sorry to read this. My thoughts are with you.


and I basically lie about looking out my 20th
floor window over the Hudson at the Holland Tunnel. It's a rare day I
don't flinch at least once from a small plane or chopper suddenly
looming what seems to be a bit too large in my window...


Not something that you are able to get used to, but rest assured that those
pilots are very alert to the surrounding buildings in that area. This is
especially notable of the helicopter pilots, who fly that airspace many
times a day.

snip

You folks
in your flying machines represent that to me, and any assault on your
freedoms would need to be justified by a much denser history of mishaps
than exists to date.


I have read of airplanes experiencing engine failure that resulted in a
ditching in the Hudson, but AFAIK, this is the first fatality in a fixed
wing aircraft over the VFR corridor in many years. Keep in mind that this
is a very popular flight with pilots and many make it each day.

snip

Maybe Lidle was a
crash waiting to happen, but his rendevous with this exact building on
this day could have been a function of corridor layout. Maybe there
should not be seams in VFR corridors obliging pilots to negotiate
high-skill turns over ultra-populated ground?


In looking at the NY Times animation of the flight path, which most likely
contains inaccuracies, a thought occurred to me: Given that there was a
CFI aboard, I wonder if the Cirrus purposely avoided flying directly over
Roosevelt Island and instead remained west of the island and over the
water, which significantly reduced what little airspace they had to make
the U-turn?

The only time I flew up the East River corridor (three or four years ago
and in a C172), my decision where to U-turn , which I had thought of when
planning the flight, involved doing so well south of Roosevelt Island, over
what seemed to be the widest point of the East River. Mind you, I am not
at all meaning to compare decision-making skills, but rather to demonstrate
that I was concerned both about remaining well clear of the Class B
airspace at the northern tip of Roosevelt Island and to be over a wide
enough point of the river in which to execute the turn.

Admittedly, in thinking of this accident I discovered that my one major
weakness in flying the East River that day was the fact that I never even
gave the winds aloft any thought and I, too, turned into Manhattan to make
the turn. At the time I probably only had about 100 hours.

And in a 172 you have quite an advantage over the Cirrus with regard to
turn radius.

Matt

"Jay Honeck" wrote

That's a speech that needs to be heard more often. Thanks for sharing
it.

What he said!

Also, good luck, and best wishes in your current situation, and fight. I hope
things turn to the better with you!
--
Jim in NC

The fact that he's from California might explain why they went up the East
river. He might not have known the area well enough to know that they were
heading into a box canyon.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
Matt Barrow wrote:


Very much along those lines...
http://boortz.com/nuze/200610/10122006.html#crash

Neil Boortz is a 2500 hr pilot.


Instructor just identified. California-based instructor
(who also held an A&P cert.).

"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in message ...
: The fact that he's from California might explain why they went up the East
: river. He might not have known the area well enough to know that they were
: heading into a box canyon.
:
: --
: Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
:
:

Plenty of box canyons in CA that have planes in them, but those don't make the news like this one....

..Blueskies. writes:

Plenty of box canyons in CA that have planes in them, but those
don't make the news like this one....

How many of the box canyons have multimillion-dollar apartments in
high-rises as well?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

112 mph, 30 deg bank = 3000 ft turn diameter
112 mph, 45 deg bank = 2000 ft turn diameter
112 mph, 60 deg bank = 1000 ft turn diameter

So, if the "canyon" is 2000 ft wide, and they were traveling
up the middle, incredibly difficult to make the turn safely.

www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html