ASH 26E VS DG 808C

I would like to see 20 meters in the next motor glider to get the
wingloading down.

On Oct 21, 1:47 pm, wrote:
I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now that
DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching guys
think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared to
9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall
warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in
the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus
these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would
you like to see in the next self launch glider?

Roger wrote:
I would like to see 20 meters in the next motor glider to get the
wingloading down.

The Antares has 20 meters, but I don't know if it has a lower wing
loading; on the other hand, the Apis, Taurus, and Silent are 15 meters,
and they do have a lighter wing loading. I'm assuming you don't want to
go to the 25 meter span gliders to achieve that light wing loading...

How low did you think was needed? Are you flying in weak weather?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the
wing loading in a motor glider is near max. In the winter this means
the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the
motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.

On Oct 21, 6:35 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
I would like to see 20 meters in the next motor glider to get the
wingloading down.The Antares has 20 meters, but I don't know if it has a lower wing
loading; on the other hand, the Apis, Taurus, and Silent are 15 meters,
and they do have a lighter wing loading. I'm assuming you don't want to
go to the 25 meter span gliders to achieve that light wing loading...

How low did you think was needed? Are you flying in weak weather?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Roger wrote:
Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the
wing loading in a motor glider is near max.

Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That
removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well
as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is
an important number, so don't go just by wing loading.

In the winter this means
the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the
motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.

Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able
to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare
leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak
conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as
you thought you would.

Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but
it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable
flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good
soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not
that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the
motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much!

To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent
gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10
years ago.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

So which one would you choose today? The Antares is much more
expensive so that limits the market. What would you like in the next
generation of MG.

On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the
wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That
removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well
as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is
an important number, so don't go just by wing loading.

In the winter this means
the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the
motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able
to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare
leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak
conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as
you thought you would.

Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but
it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable
flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good
soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not
that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the
motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much!

To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent
gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10
years ago.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Roger wrote:
So which one would you choose today? The Antares is much more
expensive so that limits the market. What would you like in the next
generation of MG.

It's been 12 years since I chose my glider, and I haven't kept up with
the details of the other gliders. So far, none seem to offer enough
improvement to make the effort to investigate them carefully. The
electric gliders are very promising: The Antares is expensive but high
performance; the electric Silent and Apis are much cheaper but with
lesser performance. Would I be happy with a smaller, cheaper, lighter
glider that's less trouble on the ground but not as long-legged in the
air? I don't know! I'd love to fly each of them for several flights...


On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the
wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That
removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well
as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is
an important number, so don't go just by wing loading.

In the winter this means
the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the
motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able
to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare
leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak
conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as
you thought you would.

Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but
it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable
flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good
soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not
that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the
motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much!

To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent
gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10
years ago.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org



--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric, can you explain span loading as opposed to wing loading?

On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the
wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That
removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well
as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is
an important number, so don't go just by wing loading.

In the winter this means
the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the
motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able
to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare
leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak
conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as
you thought you would.

Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but
it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable
flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good
soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not
that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the
motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much!

To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent
gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10
years ago.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Roger wrote:
Eric, can you explain span loading as opposed to wing loading?

Span loading = weight/span. I don't have a good technical reference for
it, but it accounts for aspect ratio effects to some extent. Consider
two gliders with the same wing area and weight, giving them the same
wing loading. The one with the higher aspect ratio, and consequently
lower span loading because the span is greater, will thermal better.
It's weight could be increased until they climbed the same, but it would
now have a higher wing loading and cruise better.

I mentioned it because it seemed likely you were thinking of 15 meter
ships flying around empty in the weak winter conditions at about 7.5
lbs/sq ft, and wondering how an 18 meter glider could possibly keep up
at 8.5 lbs/sq.

On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the
wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That
removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well
as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is
an important number, so don't go just by wing loading.

In the winter this means
the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the
motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able
to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare
leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak
conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as
you thought you would.

Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but
it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable
flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good
soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not
that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the
motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much!

To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent
gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10
years ago.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org



--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:JlB_g.416$ke4.139@trndny02...
Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able to
do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare leave
the field.

Ah Hah.....so you DO admit that having the motor is an advantage! ;-)

Casey
KC

Kilo Charlie wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:JlB_g.416$ke4.139@trndny02...
Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able to
do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare leave
the field.

Ah Hah.....so you DO admit that having the motor is an advantage! ;-)

Admit? Admit? I've claimed and promoted that for 10 years! It's not an
advantage for everyone, however, as I discuss in detail in my "Guide"
(see below for a copy). I do a lot more soaring in a lot more places
because I have a self-launching sailplane; unfortunately, the cost
(mostly) and complexity of motorgliders keep plenty of pilots from
joining me. The electric powered gliders are addressing the complexity
issue, but the not the cost.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org