Get a ferry permit, or just fly it?

Newps wrote:
Paul Tomblin wrote:

If you've got a small problem with your plane, do you bother with a ferry
permit, or do you just fly it if you think it's safe?

Fly it.



Hypothetical: Say your (shared) plane has gotten some damage, say for
instance a wingtip strobe/nav light assembly got scraped off against a
hangar while it was being towed. Say that the wires are secured with duct
tape and the person who did the damage flew it home like that.


Fly it.


Also say
that the company that does the work on your plane isn't at your home
airport. Would you wait for a good VFR day and fly it over to that
company, or would you go through all the hassle of getting a local
mechanic to inspect it and apply for a ferry permit?


Fly it.

Does this hypothetical pilot have enough education to
determine that there is no hidden damage? Wingtip damage sometimes
results in wing root damage, particularly at the aft spar. A bashed
wingtip might be ready to come loose in flight and foul an aileron,
especialy those cheap plastic tips found on so many airplanes. If most
pilots saw the light structure inside most light aircraft, structure
that was designed for flight loads, not ground abuses, they'd think
again about "just flying it." Been there, done that, lived to tell the
story.
I would imagine that ferry permits were created to protect
people from themselves.

Dan

wrote:
Newps wrote:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
Does this hypothetical pilot have enough education to
determine that there is no hidden damage? Wingtip damage sometimes
results in wing root damage, particularly at the aft spar.

I guess that's one argument. However, you can take anything to an
extream. Hitting the nav light plastic cover with the hanger door
wouldn't seem too important to most of us. In the end a pilot must make
his own determination. There is probably not a plane in the air that
the FDSO couldn't ground for one reason or another. Pilots must use the
best common sense they have.

I would imagine that ferry permits were created to protect
people from themselves.

My bet is that the permits were created as a legal loophole so the FSDO
couldn't strand your plane in some remote area that wasn't capable of
performing the required maintenance. Once the FAA uses the
"unairworthy" word a pilot is otherwise stuck. Those of us who have
done some bush flying have had situations where we've needed to fly
"unairworthy" planes out of remote areas. I've had insurance companies
pay me to fly planes that have had illegal field repairs (although done
by licensed IA's) that would have required major alteration 337's to
otherwise fly out of very remote areas (or countries), especially when
flight controls have been damaged and repaired.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary wrote:



My bet is that the permits were created as a legal loophole so the FSDO
couldn't strand your plane in some remote area that wasn't capable of
performing the required maintenance. Once the FAA uses the
"unairworthy" word a pilot is otherwise stuck. Those of us who have
done some bush flying have had situations where we've needed to fly
"unairworthy" planes out of remote areas.

Absolutely. And some of us just don't care. Helped a buddy who taxiied
his Cub into a hole that bent one of the prop blades. We used a 5 pound
mallet and a wooden wheel chock to pound it more or less back into shape
so he could fly it the 30 miles back home. He said it vibrated pretty
good on the way back home but who cares?

Newps wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:



My bet is that the permits were created as a legal loophole so the FSDO
couldn't strand your plane in some remote area that wasn't capable of
performing the required maintenance. Once the FAA uses the
"unairworthy" word a pilot is otherwise stuck. Those of us who have
done some bush flying have had situations where we've needed to fly
"unairworthy" planes out of remote areas.

Absolutely. And some of us just don't care. Helped a buddy who taxiied
his Cub into a hole that bent one of the prop blades. We used a 5 pound
mallet and a wooden wheel chock to pound it more or less back into shape
so he could fly it the 30 miles back home. He said it vibrated pretty
good on the way back home but who cares?

He would have, if the crank had busted or he'd lost part of that
prop blade. Blades often crack when bent beyond certain angles-per-unit
of blade span, and a cracked blade will often let go and leave the rest
so unbalanced that the whole engine is torn from the airplane. CG moves
way aft and it won't even glide. It has happened. Propeller bolts are
known to crack, as well.
And you *would* have cared, too, trying to explain to his
widow and kids what you guys had been up to.
I once had a crank break. In flight. There'd been a
propstrike sometime in the distant past (old engine) and the crack that
resulted finally made itself known. Same sort of engine as in your
friend's old Cub. The crank tends to crack between the #1 and #2
throws. I have a picture of the front end of an O-520 crank that had
been propstruck. Came right out of the engine some time after the
strike.
These days most insurance companies, engine manufacturers and
even some governments want the engine torn down after a propstrike due
to the high incidence of engine failure following such an event. I just
heard the other day of an engine that failed 100 hours after a strike,
and after the gyppo shop missed the crack in the crank and put the
engine back together.
During a propstrike, some Lycomings are known to spit loose the
camshaft drive gear retaining bolt in the back of the crank, eventually
letting the gear get away. An engine doesn't run too well without the
cam turning. See:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...5?OpenDocument

Some shops find bent or cracked con rods, pistons, cranks and/or cases.
The shock of a prop striking something firm is transmitted directly to
the engine, unlike an automobile that has tires and a drivetrain to
twist and absorb it.

Dan

wrote:



He would have, if the crank had busted or he'd lost part of that
prop blade. Blades often crack when bent beyond certain angles-per-unit
of blade span, and a cracked blade will often let go and leave the rest
so unbalanced that the whole engine is torn from the airplane. CG moves
way aft and it won't even glide. It has happened. Propeller bolts are
known to crack, as well.
And you *would* have cared, too, trying to explain to his
widow and kids what you guys had been up to.

You worry too much.




These days most insurance companies, engine manufacturers and
even some governments want the engine torn down after a propstrike due
to the high incidence of engine failure following such an event.


Sure, if you carry insurance.

"Newps" wrote in message
...


wrote:



He would have, if the crank had busted or he'd lost part of that
prop blade. Blades often crack when bent beyond certain angles-per-unit
of blade span, and a cracked blade will often let go and leave the rest
so unbalanced that the whole engine is torn from the airplane. CG moves
way aft and it won't even glide. It has happened. Propeller bolts are
known to crack, as well.
And you *would* have cared, too, trying to explain to his
widow and kids what you guys had been up to.

You worry too much.



Thank God you didn't have a non TSO bulb in the landing light. You would
have crashed for sure.

For the clue-impared among us: No I don't really mean that. I was being
sarcastic. Again.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

wrote:
These days most insurance companies, engine manufacturers and
even some governments want the engine torn down after a propstrike due
to the high incidence of engine failure following such an event.

That's certainly *not* been my experience with insurance companies.
They want the plane flown out to a secure location where it won't be
looted.


During a propstrike, some Lycomings are known to spit loose the
camshaft drive gear retaining bolt in the back of the crank, eventually
letting the gear get away. An engine doesn't run too well without the
cam turning.

Again, contrary to my experience. In the Mooney community the factory
service centers frequently fly out to airports with a prop and a pair
of jacks after a gear up landing. Jack the plane up, swap the prop, and
fly it back to the shop. I've never heard of any shop having any
problems getting a Lycoming Mooney back to the shop

-Robert

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Again, contrary to my experience. In the Mooney community the factory
service centers frequently fly out to airports with a prop and a pair
of jacks after a gear up landing. Jack the plane up, swap the prop, and
fly it back to the shop. I've never heard of any shop having any
problems getting a Lycoming Mooney back to the shop

-Robert

That's normal procedure. Get it out of there with a ferry permit, then
do the major work in the shop. The crank maty be bent or cracked, so
that's the reason for the permit: to limit risk to passengers or people
and property on the ground. The fact that they jacked it up, put on
another prop and flew it back does not in any way prove that the engine
isn't going to fail within the next 100 hours or whatever.

Dan

Robert M. Gary wrote:


I would imagine that ferry permits were created to protect
people from themselves.

My bet is that the permits were created as a legal loophole so the FSDO
couldn't strand your plane in some remote area that wasn't capable of
performing the required maintenance. Once the FAA uses the
"unairworthy" word a pilot is otherwise stuck. Those of us who have
done some bush flying have had situations where we've needed to fly
"unairworthy" planes out of remote areas. I've had insurance companies
pay me to fly planes that have had illegal field repairs (although done
by licensed IA's) that would have required major alteration 337's to
otherwise fly out of very remote areas (or countries), especially when
flight controls have been damaged and repaired.

-Robert

In Canada the ferry permit must be signed by a mechanic who has
inspected the airplane and certified it "safe and fit for flight,"
which means it's safe enough but not in compliance with its type
certificate and therefore not airworthy. In most cases only essential
flight crew may be carried.

Dan

Same in USA. In fact that is one of the prime uses I made
of my A&P. Go get a damaged airplane and inspect and sign
off the permit.

It is a good idea to check with the insurance company to be
sure that the insurance is valid because a "ferry permit" is
a good idea.

§ 21.197 Special flight permits.
(a) A special flight permit may be issued for an aircraft
that may not currently meet applicable airworthiness
requirements but is capable of safe flight, for the
following purposes:

(1) Flying the aircraft to a base where repairs,
alterations, or maintenance are to be performed, or to a
point of storage.

(2) Delivering or exporting the aircraft.

(3) Production flight testing new production aircraft.

(4) Evacuating aircraft from areas of impending danger.

(5) Conducting customer demonstration flights in new
production aircraft that have satisfactorily completed
production flight tests.

(b) A special flight permit may also be issued to authorize
the operation of an aircraft at a weight in excess of its
maximum certificated takeoff weight for flight beyond the
normal range over water, or over land areas where adequate
landing facilities or appropriate fuel is not available. The
excess weight that may be authorized under this paragraph is
limited to the additional fuel, fuel-carrying facilities,
and navigation equipment necessary for the flight.

(c) Upon application, as prescribed in §119.51 or §91.1017
of this chapter, a special flight permit with a continuing
authorization may be issued for aircraft that may not meet
applicable airworthiness requirements but are capable of
safe flight for the purpose of flying aircraft to a base
where maintenance or alterations are to be performed. The
permit issued under this paragraph is an authorization,
including conditions and limitations for flight, which is
set forth in the certificate holder's operations
specifications. The permit issued under this paragraph may
be issued to-

(1) Certificate holders authorized to conduct operations
under Part 121 of this chapter; or

(2) Certificate holders authorized to conduct operations
under Part 135 for those aircraft they operate and maintain
under a continuous airworthiness maintenance program
prescribed by §135.411 (a)(2) or (b) of that part.

The permit issued under this paragraph is an authorization,
including any conditions and limitations for flight, which
is set forth in the certificate holder's operations
specifications.

(3) Management specification holders authorized to conduct
operations under part 91, subpart K, for those aircraft they
operate and maintain under a continuous airworthiness
maintenance program prescribed by §91.1411 of this part.

[Doc. No. 5085, 29 FR 14570, Oct. 24, 1964, as amended by
Amdt. 21-21, 33 FR 6859, May 7, 1968; Amdt. 21-51, 45 FR
60170, Sept. 11, 1980; Amdt. 21-54, 46 FR 37878, July 23,
1981; Amdt. 21-79, 66 FR 21066, Apr. 27, 2001; Amdt. 21-84,
68 FR 54559, Sept. 17, 2003; Amdt. 21-87, 71 FR 536,



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Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 21-CERTIFICATION PROCEDURES FOR PRODUCTS AND PARTS
Subpart H-Airworthiness Certificates


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§ 21.199 Issue of special flight permits.
(a) Except as provided in §21.197(c), an applicant for a
special flight permit must submit a statement in a form and
manner prescribed by the Administrator, indicating-

(1) The purpose of the flight.

(2) The proposed itinerary.

(3) The crew required to operate the aircraft and its
equipment, e.g., pilot, co-pilot, navigator, etc.

(4) The ways, if any, in which the aircraft does not comply
with the applicable airworthiness requirements.

(5) Any restriction the applicant considers necessary for
safe operation of the aircraft.

(6) Any other information considered necessary by the
Administrator for the purpose of prescribing operating
limitations.

(b) The Administrator may make, or require the applicant to
make appropriate inspections or tests necessary for safety.

[Doc. No. 5085, 29 FR 14570, Oct. 24, 1964, as amended by
Amdt. 21-21, 33 FR 6859, May 7, 1968; Amdt. 21-22, 33 FR
11901, Aug. 22, 1968]

wrote in message
ups.com...
|
| Robert M. Gary wrote:
|
|
| I would imagine that ferry permits were
created to protect
| people from themselves.
|
| My bet is that the permits were created as a legal
loophole so the FSDO
| couldn't strand your plane in some remote area that
wasn't capable of
| performing the required maintenance. Once the FAA uses
the
| "unairworthy" word a pilot is otherwise stuck. Those of
us who have
| done some bush flying have had situations where we've
needed to fly
| "unairworthy" planes out of remote areas. I've had
insurance companies
| pay me to fly planes that have had illegal field repairs
(although done
| by licensed IA's) that would have required major
alteration 337's to
| otherwise fly out of very remote areas (or countries),
especially when
| flight controls have been damaged and repaired.
|
| -Robert
|
| In Canada the ferry permit must be signed by a
mechanic who has
| inspected the airplane and certified it "safe and fit for
flight,"
| which means it's safe enough but not in compliance with
its type
| certificate and therefore not airworthy. In most cases
only essential
| flight crew may be carried.
|
| Dan
|