Lessons learned from the Oregon tragedy

Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival
and always have some minimum supplies, so walking out might
be an option, but sitting it out with the supplies when a
flight plan has been filed and S&R was known to be coming is
the best option.
But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they
close to the route they should have been on? His body
warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just the
mother and two small children.

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast
fed her children, but that would materially shorten her life
due to the use of water and calories.

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and are
very warm. Some survival foods, jerky, canned milk, water,
maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit, even a small cooler
with food for the trip would have made a difference.
Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state
has a road department or police that will tell you about
road closings and weather. The things that they could have
done before hand is a long list, any one or two might have
made the difference.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but auto
clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans" as a
service.


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| That was the smartest thing they did. Tire smoke is
very
| dark and easy to see in the day time with high clouds,
not
| much good at night or in snow. Neither are flares, but
like
| having extra keys, planning for the emergency may make
it
| not happen.
|
| His worst decision was to try to walk out. On any road,
the
| searchers would have a better chance to see the car.
The
| car was some shelter and that applies to an airplane
too.
| Stay with the crash/landing site. Lay out markers.
|
| I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I
could follow it
| for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die
trying than die
| sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
|
|
| Matt

"Jim Macklin" writes:

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast
fed her children, but that would materially shorten her life
due to the use of water and calories.

There was snow, which could be melted (presumably) to provide fresh
water. People can go without food for quite a while, easily two
weeks. Very young children should be fed when possible, but breast
milk provides everything required for that, and the mom can easily
afford the loss of calories over short periods (days, two weeks,
etc.).

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and are
very warm.

I thought I read they were going to get a Christmas tree. If so, they
really should have taken more gear and food, just in case.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but auto
clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans" as a
service.

Sounds a lot like a flight plan. But a lot of pilots don't bother to
file flight plans, either.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Jim Macklin wrote:

Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival
and always have some minimum supplies, so walking out might
be an option, but sitting it out with the supplies when a
flight plan has been filed and S&R was known to be coming is
the best option.
But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they
close to the route they should have been on? His body
warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just the
mother and two small children.

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast
fed her children, but that would materially shorten her life
due to the use of water and calories.

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and are
very warm. Some survival foods, jerky, canned milk, water,
maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit, even a small cooler
with food for the trip would have made a difference.
Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state
has a road department or police that will tell you about
road closings and weather. The things that they could have
done before hand is a long list, any one or two might have
made the difference.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but auto
clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans" as a
service.

Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a
day in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every year) and I can
walk 50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was less than 50
miles from civilization, I think I have a good chance of getting help
faster than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like this where
nobody knows where I am.

I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you are and that
you are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot of sense.
The trouble with general advice is that it often is useless
specifically. :-)


Matt

It is all moot for Kim. People who know what and how to
hike out, who know where they are (maybe with a compass and
topo map, maybe with a GPS), who have the equipment and
supplies are not as likely to get themselves and their
family in such dire straits.


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied
survival
| and always have some minimum supplies, so walking out
might
| be an option, but sitting it out with the supplies when
a
| flight plan has been filed and S&R was known to be
coming is
| the best option.
| But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they
| close to the route they should have been on? His body
| warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just
the
| mother and two small children.
|
| The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother
breast
| fed her children, but that would materially shorten her
life
| due to the use of water and calories.
|
| It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
| blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and
are
| very warm. Some survival foods, jerky, canned milk,
water,
| maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit, even a small
cooler
| with food for the trip would have made a difference.
| Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every
state
| has a road department or police that will tell you about
| road closings and weather. The things that they could
have
| done before hand is a long list, any one or two might
have
| made the difference.
|
| A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
| they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
| tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but
auto
| clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans"
as a
| service.
|
| Yes, all are things that should have been done. However,
I still am not
| convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the
vehicle is correct.
| With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily
walk 10 miles a
| day in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every
year) and I can
| walk 50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was
less than 50
| miles from civilization, I think I have a good chance of
getting help
| faster than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like
this where
| nobody knows where I am.
|
| I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you
are and that
| you are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot
of sense.
| The trouble with general advice is that it often is
useless
| specifically. :-)
|
|
| Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Jim Macklin wrote:

Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival and always have
some minimum supplies, so walking out might be an option, but sitting it
out with the supplies when a flight plan has been filed and S&R was known
to be coming is the best option.
But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they close to the
route they should have been on? His body warmth in the car, a group
huddle is warmer than just the mother and two small children.

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast fed her
children, but that would materially shorten her life due to the use of
water and calories.

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and blankets in stuff
sacks, they take very little room and are very warm. Some survival
foods, jerky, canned milk, water, maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit,
even a small cooler with food for the trip would have made a difference.
Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state has a road
department or police that will tell you about road closings and weather.
The things that they could have done before hand is a long list, any one
or two might have made the difference.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that they call out
the police if you don't call them by 10 PM tonight would get S&R looking.
Haven't checked, but auto clubs and car rental agencies could offer
"drive plans" as a service.

Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a day
in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every year) and I can walk
50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was less than 50 miles
from civilization, I think I have a good chance of getting help faster
than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like this where nobody knows
where I am.

I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you are and that you
are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot of sense. The
trouble with general advice is that it often is useless specifically. :-)


Matt

I agree that it may be worth trying to walk out, but only IF you know where
you are and have a good idea of where you need to go. In this case, it
sounds like he just started walking in hopes of finding someone or
something. That's a bad plan unless the weather is good and/or you're in an
area where you are likely to find help quickly.

KB

Kyle Boatright wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Jim Macklin wrote:


Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival and always have
some minimum supplies, so walking out might be an option, but sitting it
out with the supplies when a flight plan has been filed and S&R was known
to be coming is the best option.
But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they close to the
route they should have been on? His body warmth in the car, a group
huddle is warmer than just the mother and two small children.

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast fed her
children, but that would materially shorten her life due to the use of
water and calories.

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and blankets in stuff
sacks, they take very little room and are very warm. Some survival
foods, jerky, canned milk, water, maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit,
even a small cooler with food for the trip would have made a difference.
Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state has a road
department or police that will tell you about road closings and weather.
The things that they could have done before hand is a long list, any one
or two might have made the difference.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that they call out
the police if you don't call them by 10 PM tonight would get S&R looking.
Haven't checked, but auto clubs and car rental agencies could offer
"drive plans" as a service.

Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a day
in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every year) and I can walk
50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was less than 50 miles
from civilization, I think I have a good chance of getting help faster
than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like this where nobody knows
where I am.

I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you are and that you
are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot of sense. The
trouble with general advice is that it often is useless specifically. :-)


Matt


I agree that it may be worth trying to walk out, but only IF you know where
you are and have a good idea of where you need to go. In this case, it
sounds like he just started walking in hopes of finding someone or
something. That's a bad plan unless the weather is good and/or you're in an
area where you are likely to find help quickly.

Yes, and depends on what kind of shape you are in, etc. I hunt enough
to know what I can do in a variety of weather and terrain. Folks who
leave the city only on vacation are less likely to know their
capabilities and limitations.

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a day
in pretty rough terrain

The mother should be heralded for her heroism by feeding the children even
though she was probably starved herself. Mr. Kim was likely already
physiologically compromised; if Mrs. Kim was taking care of the children, he
was probably the one removing the tires and working outside. If so, he may
have been close to physical exhaustion and hypothermia when he made the
decision to walk, and again when he left the road.

Meanwhile, at this very moment, there are search and rescue people trying to
evacuate climbers from MT. HOOD IN FREAKIN' DECEMBER.

One of the roads to the mountain just reopened having been washed out by the
winter storms, and the wind coming out of the east has been such that I
haven't even bothered trying to fly on the sunny days...too damned windy to
practice those power-off precision landings. One can only wonder about
-those- hikers. "Worst string of weather we've had in over a year; most
turbulent, cold and deadly winter conditions. I know...let's CLIMB A
MOUNTAIN. If we get hurt, why, somebody will surely risk their asses to
come bail us out. Their families will be -so- excited if those helicopter
crews come home alive..."

-c

gatt writes:

The mother should be heralded for her heroism by feeding the children even
though she was probably starved herself.

Nobody was anywhere close to starvation after only a week.
Dehydration is the only risk over such a short period, and if they
could melt snow, that was taken care of.

Mr. Kim was likely already physiologically compromised ...

Not by any lack of food.

... if Mrs. Kim was taking care of the children, he
was probably the one removing the tires and working outside.

The children don't require continuous attention.

If so, he may have been close to physical exhaustion and hypothermia
when he made the decision to walk, and again when he left the road.

I doubt that. He probably simply decided after a week that there were
no search crews looking, or that there was no way of knowing when they
would find them, so in desperation he decided to go outside and look
for help. The decision was not unreasonable; he was just unlucky.
There was a lot working against him, but once they were stuck that
couldn't be changed.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

The mother should be heralded for her heroism by feeding the children
even
though she was probably starved herself.

Nobody was anywhere close to starvation after only a week.
Dehydration is the only risk over such a short period, and if they
could melt snow, that was taken care of.

Mr. Kim was likely already physiologically compromised ...

Not by any lack of food.

... if Mrs. Kim was taking care of the children, he
was probably the one removing the tires and working outside.

The children don't require continuous attention.

If so, he may have been close to physical exhaustion and hypothermia
when he made the decision to walk, and again when he left the road.

I doubt that. He probably simply decided after a week that there were
no search crews looking, or that there was no way of knowing when they
would find them, so in desperation he decided to go outside and look
for help. The decision was not unreasonable; he was just unlucky.
There was a lot working against him, but once they were stuck that
couldn't be changed.

--
Move your sim, and a large fan, into the nearest freezer. It you give you a
new perspective!

Peter

Meanwhile, at this very moment, there are search and rescue people trying
to
evacuate climbers from MT. HOOD IN FREAKIN' DECEMBER.

One of the roads to the mountain just reopened having been washed out by
the
winter storms, and the wind coming out of the east has been such that I
haven't even bothered trying to fly on the sunny days...too damned windy
to
practice those power-off precision landings. One can only wonder about
-those- hikers. "Worst string of weather we've had in over a year; most
turbulent, cold and deadly winter conditions. I know...let's CLIMB A
MOUNTAIN. If we get hurt, why, somebody will surely risk their asses to
come bail us out. Their families will be -so- excited if those helicopter
crews come home alive..."

This has been a major irritant to me for a long time, and I suspect that
dramatic rescues as 'reality tv" may help to fuel the problem. However, it
all comes back to policy decisions...

Peter
Annoyance keeps me alive and healthy;
my blood pressure doesn't ebb away!