Growth in soaring

On Mar 16, 10:32 pm, "Ramy" wrote:
I don't think that casinos, watercrafts or off road vehicles compete
with soaring. The decline in soaring is perfectly correlated with the
birth of hang gliding and later paragliding. I am often puzzled about
the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
Our true market is the middle age and not youth. I think it is largely
a waste of efforts to try to attract youth. It is very hard to compete
with hang gliding and paragliding, which appeals much more to
youngsters who are actually interested in aviation due to their low
cost, simplicity and quick learning. I dare to assume that most
youngsters which are attracted to gliders are those who are mostly
interested in a career in aviation.
The true market is middle aged power pilots and veterans hang/para
glider pilots who are ready to expand their horizon and can afford
the cost and time involved. I don't think enough effort is given to
market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
and paragliding world (where I came from). Just my humble opinion.

As for 1800skyride.com and similar domains, they are a big scam
targeting all the aviation ride business and causes serious problems
to our ride operators. My club succedded in scaring them away from
offerring rides in our area, hopefully others will follow suit. Check
out the counter sitehttp://www.glidersailplanerides.com/and spread the word.

Ramy

On Mar 16, 11:28 am, "fred" wrote:



A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
compete.
A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A few years ago at Aboyne, I had an interesting chat with a hang
glider pilot who was starting gliding. He was quite competitive but
did not have the £11,000 or so to buy a top competition hang glider.
There are some old but still very good glass gliders around like the
Kestrel 19, for less than that, so he decided to switch and was going
to buy a share in one when he was qualified.
FWIW there is a Kestrel newsgroup on Yahoo http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kestrel401/

On of the really interesting things about gliding is that it is a very
good conversation piece. Mention you go gliding and the you often
hear..."I've always wanted a flight in a glider....."

I would like to put another perspective, with great respect to the excellent previos posts.
Flying is not so alluring these days.
I soloed 20 odd years back, at that time "flying" was only just really becoming a viable option of travelling about ones country or world, in jet aircraft. Prior to that, in the times of aviation heroes, flying (anything) was relegated to dreams and the wealthy.

Now it is cheap and easy, book over the web, $50 and your in the air! People perceive this as flight!

Now there are very few flying heroes, the days of a sea of humanity around a homecoming trans-atlantic pioneer, barnstormer or fighter pilot have well past.
Decades past between the records, when they break it is 3rd page news, as we have seen with Branson, Fossett and Ohlmann quite recently.

This discussion usually ends with

1 money
2 time
3 we do get people into the sport, we just dont retain them.

These are possibly true but I also beleive flight is not as "gee whiz" as it was when most of us took it up.

The upside is most people who do fly think that flight is limited to looking out from a pea-sized porthole, endless security and being served small drinks. The reality is far more exciting for the senses, as we know, and we need to grab that knowledge and show newcomers. Freedom can still be had in aviation!

When younger I was, I found the money and I found the time to do whatever I was hooked on and I imagine so will the youth of today, the trick is to get them hooked and to KEEP them hooked.
Danger is never a consideration to a 15 - 25 year old, sometimes even a drawcard.

I have rambled, its late!

bagger

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:19:06 +0000, Martin Gregorie
wrote:


How does airfield ownership/rental affect the situation in Germany and
France?

In Germany there is a wide variety of airfield usage, ranging from
flying on active German Airforce airfields (paying very little rent)
over rented grass strips to own airfields (that became available after
1990 when many military installations in Germany were shut down and
their real estates were sold).

In Germany usually the highest priority of a gliding club is to keep
the costs for gliding low, while in France I often see comparatively
huge glider fleets for few active pilots, resulting in far higher
total operating costs.


In the UK club two-seat insurance has rocketed over the last couple of
years to the point that my club can no longer afford to operate our T.21
- its the third party cover, not the hull insurance, that's hit clubs
here. The T.21 is of course worth nothing but, as its only flown on nice
summer days its 3rd party insurance rate per hour is huge.

The fees for 3rd-party insurances have risen in Germany, too, but
overall they're still affordable.

Bye
Andreas

bagmaker wrote:
These are possibly true but I also beleive flight is not as "gee whiz"
as it was when most of us took it up.

The upside is most people who do fly think that flight is limited to
looking out from a pea-sized porthole, endless security and being
served small drinks.

Are you sure you didn't mean the downside?

To me riding in a jetliner with the tiny porthole and the drinkies is
indistinguishable from traveling in a luxury coach or a train (though
these have bigger windows and fewer hostesses) and is about as exciting.

Possibly our biggest problem is to get a potential pilot into a glider
in the first place so they become aware of the difference between what
we do and the airline experience.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Mar 25, 6:22 am, wrote:
A few years ago at Aboyne, I had an interesting chat with a hang
glider pilot who was starting gliding. He was quite competitive but
did not have the £11,000 or so to buy a top competition hang glider.
There are some old but still very good glass gliders around like the
Kestrel 19, for less than that, so he decided to switch and was going
to buy a share in one when he was qualified.

Interesting case, as in the US there is no way one will save money by
moving from hang gliding to gliding (assuming maintaining the same
level of activity). Comparing a top of the line 11,000 hang glider
with a Kestrel is like comparing apple to oranges, the equivalent is
more like a $100,000 sailplane. The ratio is close to 10:1 in price,
so the equivalent to the Kestrel will be the typical $2000-$3000 hang
glider.
Bottom line, owning a sailplane cost about 10 times more than hang
glider, so does the cost of repairs and maintenance. One may be able
to keep the same cost by buying a small share or joining a club, but
will take a big hit on the level of activity and flexibility.

Ramy

On Mar 21, 10:38 am, (Michel Talon) wrote:
2cernauta2 wrote:
Intruduction courses are much better at retaining new members.
Costs are not the main reason for not getting into gliding.
Fear is.
Gliding is dangerous, IMVHO, or at least perceived as dangerous.

I have spoken with quite a number of people who have quit gliding
after a few or many years. Cost is the first topic they provide, but
if you ask some questions, available time (work, family) is generally
the 2nd. The third is having achieved only small goals (or, high
expectations and lesser results; results/costs ratio); this is
definitely harder to admit for most.
Finally, two topics get into play, and I strongly believe they are
most important:
. the quality of sociality in the club, or the bad quality of human
relations (quarrelling between groups of members, disagreements, poor
management of the club, sometimes even intrusions in very private
aspects of family life...)
. safety of the sport. In the 15 years of my gliding career, my
phonebook spots a black line in almost every page.

Sociality can be very hard to manage, bust must be addressed by the
club's management. When fights and quarrelling are going on, and the
members feel they have to "choose which side they should stand", or
they struggle to keep themselves out of the fight, my experience is
that the club will loose about 10percent of its members. And most of
the rest are quite unhappy.
I expect that commercial operations might be less prone to this
problem. If the operator is customer-oriented, of course.

Safety, and the achievement of reasonable goals, can in part be
addressed by a group of volunteers devoted to personalized, advanced
cross-country techiniques. But, it takes some very special kind of
people, to stay in gliding for a long time at high level of
commitment, like most of us do. We can't expect everyone to be like
us.

I believe any promotion/retention strategy can't be complete if it
doesn't aim at these two topics also.

Aldo Cernezzi

Fantastic analysis, Aldo. Each of your points are so true. I have seen
each one occurring. In particular a lot of casualties, even for very
good pilots, even instructors. I would only add that, since only few
people will retain the necessary high level of commitment for a long
time, it is essential to gain new recruits among young people who are
the best fit to begin gliding (learn faster, progress faster, etc.).
And i maintain that number one factor why young people interested in
this activity don't join is money. For slightly older people it is time.
Of course, to attract young people, another essential factor is good
social management and the presence of other young people including
ladies. You will have hard time to attract young people in a crowd of
retirees. To say the truth, in the clubs i have seen, there has always
been a steady influx of young guys and girls. But after one of two
years, most of them have disappeared by lack of money-time-motivation,
whatever.

--

Michel TALON- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have enjoyed reading the many posts on growing soaring. The one
question I have not heard is, "What can I do to promote soaring?"

Here are some actions you can take that will help promote soaring:

Contact your local press: Getting media attention isn't difficult. I
will be glad to help. The SOARING PUBLICITY HANDBOOK is filled with
ideas and templates to make it easy. In a recent issue of SOARING, I
made an offer to write press releases for glider organizations to jump
start the process.

If you would like to have an electronic form of the handbook, contact
me at . You can view the handbook on-line at
http://www.ssa.org/members/governance/volunteers.asp Click on the
Publicity Committee's Home Page.

Write: A number of SSA members, including me, have written articles
for aviation and general audience magazines. Use your connections -
professional publications, alumni magazines, etc. to find a
publication opportunity.

Create an attention-grabbing YouTube video. YouTube has some
absolutely fantastic soaring /gliding photography.

Contact your local TV stations: The TODAY show featured Lester Holt's
flight in a sailplane, and several advertisements use sailplanes. I
have found local television stations are also receptive to the idea of
featuring local soaring.

Look at the web sites of clubs with strong youth programs. Contact
club members with connections to the CAP or scouting and find ways to
work with those groups.

Airshow: Going to Oshkosh? Volunteer at the SSA booth. Many smaller
shows love to include gliders. Offer to display your ship.

Join and share your success with the Promote Soaring e-mail group.
Contact me to sign up.

Lots of people submit ideas about what ought to be done. That is
helpful if the suggestions are accompanied by a commitment to act.
Today is the perfect time to make an effort to introduce soaring to
your community

Ramy wrote:
On Mar 25, 6:22 am, wrote:
A few years ago at Aboyne, I had an interesting chat with a hang
glider pilot who was starting gliding. He was quite competitive but
did not have the £11,000 or so to buy a top competition hang glider.
There are some old but still very good glass gliders around like the
Kestrel 19, for less than that, so he decided to switch and was going
to buy a share in one when he was qualified.

Interesting case, as in the US there is no way one will save money by
moving from hang gliding to gliding (assuming maintaining the same
level of activity). Comparing a top of the line 11,000 hang glider
with a Kestrel is like comparing apple to oranges, the equivalent is
more like a $100,000 sailplane. The ratio is close to 10:1 in price,
so the equivalent to the Kestrel will be the typical $2000-$3000 hang
glider.

The hang glider pilot may not see it that way at all, instead, he
discovers he can spend 11,000 (pounds, dollars, whatever) on a sailplane
and get FAR more performance than he could with even the finest hang
glider avialable. He can have a great cross-country flight covering much
more ground and it doesn't end in a retrieve like it always did in his
hang glider. Further, he is totally impressed that he can fly that
glider for several years and sell it for as much, likely more, than he
paid for it, while his $11,000 hang glider has lost value. And he has a
nice, easy drive to the airport instead of beating up his truck on
logging roads up some mountain to the launch site.

Oh, one more thing: the pilot's wife is so pleased that he now makes it
home in time for dinner!

Based on a conversation with a former hang glider pilot that was
spending less by soaring in a sailplane, flying more, and enjoying it
more. And it was only a Ka-6e that he was flying.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric, many of your points are valid and some of the reasons I switched
last year to sailplanes from HG.

When I go flying in my sailplane I fly and typically am able to soar
95+% of the time and 2/3's of the time I am able to do some XC. My
percentage of flying, soaring and XC in my HG was 50%. If I consider
the time invested in trying to fly it is cheaper, in the long run, to
fly sail planes. The number of days I can fly and fly safely is much
greater.

I have also introduced a few HG pilots to sailplanes and when
explaining the minimal costs of the club here in UT they are amazed at
how cheap it is per hour of flying!

Regarding numbers for HG, my last HG cost me ~$13,000 (list price at
1.32 for the euro is $16,950) and provides a 20/1 glide and a ~110 FPM
sink rate. All carbon construction, except for dacron sail, 14.6
meter span and has spoilers and flaps for controls! Our competition
system and format is very similar to sailplane and the majority of
time we land back at the home field. Most HG competitions are held in
the flat lands and aerotow with ultralights is the ticket! In 2006
the world championships were held in FL, right down the road from
Seminole where the US Seniors are held, and we averaged 85-120 mile
triangle flights per day.

Just wanted to shed some light on the current technology of HG's. I
agree that sailplane clubs should be aware of the local HG and PG
clubs, make friends with them and be sure to educate them low cost of
sail plane flying.

Ron Gleason

On Mar 27, 5:52 am, "Ron Gleason" wrote:
Eric, many of your points are valid and some of the reasons I switched
last year to sailplanes from HG.

When I go flying in my sailplane I fly and typically am able to soar
95+% of the time and 2/3's of the time I am able to do some XC. My
percentage of flying, soaring and XC in my HG was 50%. If I consider
the time invested in trying to fly it is cheaper, in the long run, to
fly sail planes. The number of days I can fly and fly safely is much
greater.

I have also introduced a few HG pilots to sailplanes and when
explaining the minimal costs of the club here in UT they are amazed at
how cheap it is per hour of flying!

Regarding numbers for HG, my last HG cost me ~$13,000 (list price at
1.32 for the euro is $16,950) and provides a 20/1 glide and a ~110 FPM
sink rate. All carbon construction, except for dacron sail, 14.6
meter span and has spoilers and flaps for controls! Our competition
system and format is very similar to sailplane and the majority of
time we land back at the home field. Most HG competitions are held in
the flat lands and aerotow with ultralights is the ticket! In 2006
the world championships were held in FL, right down the road from
Seminole where the US Seniors are held, and we averaged 85-120 mile
triangle flights per day.

Just wanted to shed some light on the current technology of HG's. I
agree that sailplane clubs should be aware of the local HG and PG
clubs, make friends with them and be sure to educate them low cost of
sail plane flying.

Ron Gleason

IMVHO, most of the competitive HG pilots I know about that have
embraced sailplanes are flying the stink out of them and are
outstanding XC pilots.

Bring it on,

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley wrote:


Just wanted to shed some light on the current technology of HG's. I
agree that sailplane clubs should be aware of the local HG and PG
clubs, make friends with them and be sure to educate them low cost of
sail plane flying.

Ron Gleason

IMVHO, most of the competitive HG pilots I know about that have
embraced sailplanes are flying the stink out of them and are
outstanding XC pilots.

That's been my observation, also. My belief is anyone that flies a HG
actively for several hundred hours has the determination, skills, and
judgment to do well and fly safely in sailplane. And it doesn't take
long for them to learn which way to move the stick, either.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org