Cost of gas is beginning to hurt

"M" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Apr 18, 9:06 am, Paul kgyy wrote:
I'm fortunate in not having to own a car.

What's kinda weird to me is the tendency to put ever larger engines in
4-place aircraft.


What's really strange is all those new 4 seaters are designed with
engine requiring 100LL, instead of 91/96.

It part of a big bore engine.

What's really strange is all those new 4 seaters are designed with
engine requiring 100LL, instead of 91/96.

It part of a big bore engine.

True, but IO-470J/K can run on 80/87. I'm sure they'll do fine on
SR-20 airframe. It also won't be very hard for TCM engineers to
reduce the compression ratio a bit and make IO-550 run on 91/96.

My point is the aircraft manufacturers are short sighted. Relying on
a fuel that's going to be increasingly more expensive than automotive
fuel doesn't do GA much good.

On 19 Apr 2007 17:38:00 -0700, M wrote:

My point is the aircraft manufacturers are short sighted. Relying on
a fuel that's going to be increasingly more expensive than automotive
fuel doesn't do GA much good.

Have you tried getting mogas lately? Even auto gas is becoming
unusable because of all of the alcohol. I suspect for aviation diesel
will be the solution for a while.

On Apr 19, 7:29 pm, ArtP wrote:

Have you tried getting mogas lately? Even auto gas is becoming
unusable because of all of the alcohol. I suspect for aviation diesel
will be the solution for a while.

Ethanol has nothing to do with this. Why 100LL doens't have ethanol
in it? Because the oil company doens't blend it when it's loaded into
the truck.

It's very simple for oil company to produce an unleaded *aviation*
gasoline with AKI similar to 91/96 avgas that would cost about the
same as Premium autofuel, transported via the normal pipeline system.
The only reason this is not happening is the aviation industry has its
head in the sand and continues to produce *new* airplanes requiring
100LL instead of 91/96. It prevents the market for the 91 unleaded
avgas to develop, and the industry suffers as a result because of the
ever lowering number of GA hours flown.

"M" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Apr 19, 7:29 pm, ArtP wrote:

Have you tried getting mogas lately? Even auto gas is becoming
unusable because of all of the alcohol. I suspect for aviation diesel
will be the solution for a while.

Ethanol has nothing to do with this. Why 100LL doens't have ethanol
in it? Because the oil company doens't blend it when it's loaded into
the truck.

Geez...anothe Mxmaniac.


It's very simple for oil company to produce an unleaded *aviation*
gasoline with AKI similar to 91/96 avgas that would cost about the
same as Premium autofuel, transported via the normal pipeline system.
The only reason this is not happening is the aviation industry has its
head in the sand and continues to produce *new* airplanes requiring
100LL instead of 91/96. It prevents the market for the 91 unleaded
avgas to develop, and the industry suffers as a result because of the
ever lowering number of GA hours flown.

Read, butthead: http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182149-1.html

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

Read, butthead: http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182149-1.html

I notice that Avweb now requires registration and none of the bugmenot.com
listings would work. Too bad, it was a good site.

"Private" wrote in message
news:3ScWh.101941$DE1.86877@pd7urf2no...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

Read, butthead: http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182149-1.html

I notice that Avweb now requires registration and none of the bugmenot.com
listings would work. Too bad, it was a good site.

Make one up on your own.

On 2007-04-20, ArtP wrote:
On 19 Apr 2007 17:38:00 -0700, M wrote:

I suspect for aviation diesel will be the solution for a while.

Exactly. Leaving 100LL for unleaded is half-assed. When fuel prices
match the prices in Europe, consumers will be going straight to
diesel, and Jet A will supply them.

I also agree w/ M. Aircraft makers are short-sighted. Consider the
small fraction of single engine diesels available. More manufacturers
should have already been on that by now.

Out of curiosity, what's to stop the GA pilot (in terms of FAA law)
from making their own batch of biodiesel from waste oil to get rock
bottom prices, and sidestep the avgas tax entirely?

Accounting for the cost of raw material, the yield would be ~$1/gal,
which would make the fuel costs of flying cheaper than that of driving
a typical car. And (IRS aside) what kind of FAA approval process
would enable a GA pilot to do that? Or is that scenario pure fiction?

--
PM instructions: do a C4esar Ciph3r on my address; retain punctuation.

In article f3hWh.756$dM1.354@trndny07,
Justin Gombos wrote:

Out of curiosity, what's to stop the GA pilot (in terms of FAA law)
from making their own batch of biodiesel from waste oil to get rock
bottom prices, and sidestep the avgas tax entirely?

You must operate the aircraft (including the engine) iaw the limitations.
Those limitations will include minimum standards for the fuel. As long as
you could show your batch of diodiesel meets those standards, you
should be fine.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

On 2007-04-21, Bob Noel wrote:
In article f3hWh.756$dM1.354@trndny07,
Justin Gombos wrote:

You must operate the aircraft (including the engine) iaw the
limitations. Those limitations will include minimum standards for
the fuel. As long as you could show your batch of diodiesel meets
those standards, you should be fine.

That's more favorable than I would have expected. I suspect it would
be trivial for biodiesel to exceed the standards that petroleum diesel
is held to, at least in terms of quality.

There is a quality standard in place for producing biodiesel: ASTM
D6751. All biodiesel must meet that standard. So it's a question of
whether ASTM D6751 fuel complies w/ the standard you're talking about,
by default. What do you mean by "iaw?" Does the PIM document the
standard you're referring to?

If biodiesel falls short of the standards, it can be mixed w/ just
enough jet A to make it compliant.

On 2007-04-21, Blueskies wrote:

Diesel or Jet fuel will cost us the same a 100LL if the switch over
occurs.

If that's true, then diesel will certainly be favorable because of the
superior efficiency (you travel go further on a gallon of diesel), and
longer engine life.

BioDiesel will also become unobtanium when/if the demand shifts;
there is not enough bio stuff to make it with to go around.

Do you think it would hit that extreme? I think aircraft owners are
unlikely to stop using their 100LL engines, and all buy diesels all at
once. The upfront cost and downtime would keep down the numbers of
owners making the transition, IMO. Certainly the GA market is
oversaturated with 100LL engines as it stands.

--
PM instructions: do a C4esar Ciph3r on my address; retain punctuation.