interesting moment yesterday on final

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Judah" wrote in message
. ..
If he was IFR, ATC would have probably informed him there was traffic in
the pattern at his destination and might have tried to wait until he had a
visual before allowing him to change frequency.


If ATC was showing traffic at his destination he should have been advised of
that before frequency change, but the frequency change shouldn't be delayed.



If ATC can show traffic at the destination. Where I fly, KELD Ft Worth
center can't see anything below 2000 feet. The Traffic pattern is half
that.

601XL Builder wrDOTgiacona@suddenlinkDOTnet wrote in
:

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Judah" wrote in message
. ..
If he was IFR, ATC would have probably informed him there was traffic
in the pattern at his destination and might have tried to wait until
he had a visual before allowing him to change frequency.


If ATC was showing traffic at his destination he should have been
advised of that before frequency change, but the frequency change
shouldn't be delayed.



If ATC can show traffic at the destination. Where I fly, KELD Ft Worth
center can't see anything below 2000 feet. The Traffic pattern is half
that.


If ATC can't see the traffic, I can't imagine they would delay frequency
change, though...

Recently, Tom posted:

So I went for a lovely flight yesterday, from Bedford (KBED) down to
Nantucket (KACK) for dinner. We flew down there in the last hour or so
of daylight with a smooth ride and great views, and then returned at
night with an even smoother ride and great night-time views, including
a few circles over Harvard, MIT and Back Bay on the way home. ATC were
very accommodating since it was fairly late.

Bedford tower was closed so I was on the CTAF frequency as I
approached the field. I was initially thinking of taking runway 24
since the winds were 190. When I announced my imminent arrival in the
vicinity of the field an aircraft informed me they were on final for
11. They also mentioned an aircraft in the area that was at 5,000 and
on an IFR flight plan but not talking to ATC, possibly inbound for
landing as well.

Armed with this information, I changed my plan and entered a downwind
leg for 11 (since the winds were not strong and that seemed to be the
established pattern). I announced my downwind leg, my base and my
final (looking out for traffic all the way). When I was at 1 mile
final, I hear

"Nxxxx, 3 mile final for 11, Bedford"
I respond with "I am 1 mile final for 11, Bedford"
He responds with "We'll slow it down"
This doesn't comfort me that much, since I'm only going 65 knots.
Maybe I should have said this to him at the time.
Then he comes in again with "We're going to break off our approach, do
a 360 and rejoin"
As I'm at 50ft, he says "Have you landed yet"
I reply with "Just about to touch down"

Then I land, clear the runway, inform him I am clear, and then he
lands. Everything works out fine although my landing isn't exactly a
greaser.

I didn't feel that great about the incident: did I do something wrong?
Why didn't I see him on final before I turned final (I specifically
remember looking in that direction before turning final)? What if the
timings had been slightly different?

And for his part, shouldn't he have been on the frequency and known I
was in the pattern? Shouldn't his first call have been a lot sooner
than 3 mile final? Shouldn't he have flown a circuit rather than come
straight in? I'm assuming he wasn't in any kind of emergency situation
as he would have asked me to go around.

Thoughts appreciated, especially from those with extensive flying
experience.

Tom

My first reaction is that I'm surprised that he wasn't looking for you,
given that he was attempting a straight-in from only 3 miles out with
known traffic in the pattern. He shouldn't have had to ask whether you
landed yet or not.

At uncontrolled fields anything can happen, and should be watched for. The
uncontrolled field I use most often has two crossing runways and *no*
established pattern. It isn't unusual to have several planes in the
pattern as well as incoming traffic of various kinds from biz jets to
biplanes and helos. People come in as they wish, and only those with
radios can announce. Gives "see and avoid" a bit of signficance! ;-)

Neil

My first reaction is that I'm surprised that he wasn't looking for you,
given that he was attempting a straight-in from only 3 miles out with
known traffic in the pattern. He shouldn't have had to ask whether you
landed yet or not.

My guess is that he switched to the frequency and then immediately
called his 3 mile final, so he didn't initially know I was in the
pattern. I think he was probably half way through his 360 when he
asked if I had landed or not.


At uncontrolled fields anything can happen, and should be watched for. The
uncontrolled field I use most often has two crossing runways and *no*
established pattern. It isn't unusual to have several planes in the
pattern as well as incoming traffic of various kinds from biz jets to
biplanes and helos. People come in as they wish, and only those with
radios can announce. Gives "see and avoid" a bit of signficance! ;-)


Must be interesting.

Tom wrote:

My first reaction is that I'm surprised that he wasn't looking for you,
given that he was attempting a straight-in from only 3 miles out with
known traffic in the pattern. He shouldn't have had to ask whether you
landed yet or not.


My guess is that he switched to the frequency and then immediately
called his 3 mile final, so he didn't initially know I was in the
pattern.

Inconsiderate and unsafe.

"Erik" wrote in message
...

Inconsiderate and unsafe.


How so?

"Tom" wrote ...
Bedford tower was closed so I was on the CTAF frequency as I
approached the field.
... (another plane mentions) an aircraft in the area that was at 5,000
and on an IFR flight plan but not talking to ATC, possibly inbound for
landing as well.

This sounds like misinformation.


I didn't feel that great about the incident: did I do something wrong?
Why didn't I see him on final before I turned final (I specifically
remember looking in that direction before turning final)? What if the
timings had been slightly different?

It sounds like it went very well (both you and the other pilot). You
announced 1 mile final, he said he'd slow down but then realized the
futility of that and did a different maneuver to get better spacing behind
you.

As far as looking down final, ...the base leg is a busy period where you're
rolling level, maintaining your decent, watching your airspeed, maybe adding
flaps, looking for your landing point, and clearing the final approach for
any other inbound. Lots of times, if you are not aware of an actual inbound,
that "look" is just cursory and short of a 747 with lights on, you'll miss
that traffic. Also, pilots do not always report the distances accurately.
Sounds like he may have initiated a standard rate 360 and called you on roll
out, which would be about 2 minutes later. But you state a 1 mile final, and
approx two minutes later you were 50agl, that's a long time for a no wind 1
mile final.

But again, the events you describe sound pretty routine for after hour ops
at any airport under a B or C shelf. When I first learned to fly I actually
avoided non-towered fields because planes seemed to pop out of the strangest
places.
Places I know I just looked and were empty. ;-o

This sounds like misinformation.

What do you mean?


As far as looking down final, ...the base leg is a busy period where you're
rolling level, maintaining your decent, watching your airspeed, maybe adding
flaps, looking for your landing point, and clearing the final approach for
any other inbound. Lots of times, if you are not aware of an actual inbound,
that "look" is just cursory and short of a 747 with lights on, you'll miss
that traffic. Also, pilots do not always report the distances accurately.
Sounds like he may have initiated a standard rate 360 and called you on roll
out, which would be about 2 minutes later. But you state a 1 mile final, and
approx two minutes later you were 50agl, that's a long time for a no wind 1
mile final.

Good point about the look possibly being cursory. My guess is he
called my half way through the turn (which was why he couldn't see
me), which would be about right for a 1 minute 1 mile final at 65
knots.


But again, the events you describe sound pretty routine for after hour ops
at any airport under a B or C shelf. When I first learned to fly I actually
avoided non-towered fields because planes seemed to pop out of the strangest
places.
Places I know I just looked and were empty. ;-o

On 27 Apr 2007 10:13:14 -0700, Tom wrote in
. com:

I didn't feel that great about the incident: did I do something wrong?

That depends on the altitudes of your and his aircraft:


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text... .1.3.10.2.4.7
§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging
at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so),
the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface
which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an
aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are
approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at
the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take
advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on
final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

Why didn't I see him on final before I turned final (I specifically
remember looking in that direction before turning final)?

Perhaps he was so low, that his visual conspicuity was diminished
against the surface clutter?

I had an opportunity to go head to head with someone
once. I was in the established pattern, there were about
3 or 4 of us. I called my turn to base. Shortly after,
this guy announces base.

I'm looking around like my head was detached from my body.
I called and asked if he really had announced base because
I can't find anyone. He never answers.

I'm still looking and turn final. I announce my position
and he announces final.

Lo and behold, there he is, about a mile away from me coming
from the opposite direction. I move over to the right a bit
and stop my descent. Someone told him that he was opposite
the calm wind runway. He announces he's leaving the area and
splits.

I go around and do it all again.

(Note to self: Remember that yours isn't the only pattern,
there's another on the other runway)