Nickname for Apache helicopter

"Jim Beaver" wrote in message
...
An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
"The
Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.

I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. Has
anyone
here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
this story?

Jim Beaver


Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't the
Army the only user, not the Marines??

On May 19, 9:03�pm, "Ed" wrote:
"Jim Beaver" wrote in message

... An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
"The
Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.

I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. *Has
anyone
here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
this story?

Jim Beaver

Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't the
Army the only user, not the Marines??

And old article from 2003 on the Apache and its vunerabilites which is
still valid in 2007:
http://www.slate.com/id/2081906/

Iraqi insurgents call the Longbow version the "Broken Bow" and they
are not completely unjustified. This is supposed to be the premiere
armored attack helo on the frontline battlefield forward of our AFVs
and infantry. Instead, they need USAF air cover and rarely are far
from the troops. When they do go out by themselves they are vunerable
to simple AK-47 and RPG fire. Many have been downed and a large amount
damaged enough not to be air worthy until after extensive repairs- and
this is against untrained mobs with small arms. Imagine fighting the
Russians, Chinese, or anyone with equal firepower, missiles, accurate
radar, and emerging anti-helo technologies...

The "Patch-Me" helo needs help...

Rob

On May 20, 12:40 am, Rob Arndt wrote:
On May 19, 9:03?pm, "Ed" wrote:





"Jim Beaver" wrote in message

t... An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
"The
Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.

I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. ?Has
anyone
here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
this story?

Jim Beaver

Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't the
Army the only user, not the Marines??

And old article from 2003 on the Apache and its vunerabilites which is
still valid in 2007:http://www.slate.com/id/2081906/

Iraqi insurgents call the Longbow version the "Broken Bow" and they
are not completely unjustified. This is supposed to be the premiere
armored attack helo on the frontline battlefield forward of our AFVs
and infantry. Instead, they need USAF air cover and rarely are far
from the troops. When they do go out by themselves they are vunerable
to simple AK-47 and RPG fire. Many have been downed and a large amount
damaged enough not to be air worthy until after extensive repairs- and
this is against untrained mobs with small arms. Imagine fighting the
Russians, Chinese, or anyone with equal firepower, missiles, accurate
radar, and emerging anti-helo technologies...


A guy I know was an Apache pilot with the NC NG. This was in
1990-91 and they were disappointed they weren't deployed to Saudi
Arabia. One thing he said stuck with me. It seems the Apaches at his
base got broken into a couple of times so they put padlocks on the
canopies. He said one guy unlocked it and just laid the lock next to
the canopy. He forgot about it and when he took off, the lock flew
back, hit something in the tail rotor, and brought the Apache down.
I have no idea whether this was true, but he said his squadron was
pretty sure the Apaches weren't "small arms proof up to 20mm" as
advertised.


The "Patch-Me" helo needs help...

Rob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 20, 12:40 am, Rob Arndt wrote:
On May 19, 9:03?pm, "Ed" wrote:





"Jim Beaver" wrote in message

t... An online article
suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models)
as
"The
Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.

I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. ?Has
anyone
here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever
heard
this story?

Jim Beaver

Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't
the
Army the only user, not the Marines??

And old article from 2003 on the Apache and its vunerabilites which is
still valid in 2007:http://www.slate.com/id/2081906/

Iraqi insurgents call the Longbow version the "Broken Bow" and they
are not completely unjustified. This is supposed to be the premiere
armored attack helo on the frontline battlefield forward of our AFVs
and infantry. Instead, they need USAF air cover and rarely are far
from the troops. When they do go out by themselves they are vunerable
to simple AK-47 and RPG fire. Many have been downed and a large amount
damaged enough not to be air worthy until after extensive repairs- and
this is against untrained mobs with small arms. Imagine fighting the
Russians, Chinese, or anyone with equal firepower, missiles, accurate
radar, and emerging anti-helo technologies...


A guy I know was an Apache pilot with the NC NG. This was in
1990-91 and they were disappointed they weren't deployed to Saudi
Arabia. One thing he said stuck with me. It seems the Apaches at his
base got broken into a couple of times so they put padlocks on the
canopies. He said one guy unlocked it and just laid the lock next to
the canopy. He forgot about it and when he took off, the lock flew
back, hit something in the tail rotor, and brought the Apache down.
I have no idea whether this was true, but he said his squadron was
pretty sure the Apaches weren't "small arms proof up to 20mm" as
advertised.

The only thing "small arms proof up to 20mm" is the cockpit. It's similar
in concept to the titanium bathtub found in the A-10. Although there is a
lot more plexiglass

Was he able to land safely?




The "Patch-Me" helo needs help...

Rob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On May 20, 11:53 pm, "Leadfoot" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...





On May 20, 12:40 am, Rob Arndt wrote:
On May 19, 9:03?pm, "Ed" wrote:

"Jim Beaver" wrote in message

t... An online article
suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models)
as
"The
Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.

I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. ?Has
anyone
here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever
heard
this story?

Jim Beaver

Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't
the
Army the only user, not the Marines??

And old article from 2003 on the Apache and its vunerabilites which is
still valid in 2007:http://www.slate.com/id/2081906/

Iraqi insurgents call the Longbow version the "Broken Bow" and they
are not completely unjustified. This is supposed to be the premiere
armored attack helo on the frontline battlefield forward of our AFVs
and infantry. Instead, they need USAF air cover and rarely are far
from the troops. When they do go out by themselves they are vunerable
to simple AK-47 and RPG fire. Many have been downed and a large amount
damaged enough not to be air worthy until after extensive repairs- and
this is against untrained mobs with small arms. Imagine fighting the
Russians, Chinese, or anyone with equal firepower, missiles, accurate
radar, and emerging anti-helo technologies...

A guy I know was an Apache pilot with the NC NG. This was in
1990-91 and they were disappointed they weren't deployed to Saudi
Arabia. One thing he said stuck with me. It seems the Apaches at his
base got broken into a couple of times so they put padlocks on the
canopies. He said one guy unlocked it and just laid the lock next to
the canopy. He forgot about it and when he took off, the lock flew
back, hit something in the tail rotor, and brought the Apache down.
I have no idea whether this was true, but he said his squadron was
pretty sure the Apaches weren't "small arms proof up to 20mm" as
advertised.

The only thing "small arms proof up to 20mm" is the cockpit. It's similar
in concept to the titanium bathtub found in the A-10. Although there is a
lot more plexiglass

I seem to remember reading that the rotors were supposedly 20mm
proof.....

Was he able to land safely?

Apparently he never got very high....pretty much did some ground
spins...torque is a biatch.






The "Patch-Me" helo needs help...

Rob- Hide quoted text -

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In message . com,
writes
On May 20, 11:53 pm, "Leadfoot" wrote:
wrote in message
I have no idea whether this was true, but he said his squadron was
pretty sure the Apaches weren't "small arms proof up to 20mm" as
advertised.

The only thing "small arms proof up to 20mm" is the cockpit. It's similar
in concept to the titanium bathtub found in the A-10. Although there is a
lot more plexiglass

I seem to remember reading that the rotors were supposedly 20mm
proof.....

The usual claim I've seen is that the Apache is designed to survive a
couple of hits from up to 23mm HEI (I assume with ZSU-23-4s in mind) -
that's not "23mm proof", but rather "won't crash immediately and can
limp back to base for repairs". Stuff like the gearbox able to run dry
for thirty minutes before eating itself, that kind of thing.

I'm sure there are still spots where one golden bullet can bring it
down, but it's a tough bird as helicopters go.

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)codotuk

Paul J. Adam wrote:

The usual claim I've seen is that the Apache is designed to survive a
couple of hits from up to 23mm HEI (I assume with ZSU-23-4s in mind) -
that's not "23mm proof", but rather "won't crash immediately and can
limp back to base for repairs". Stuff like the gearbox able to run dry
for thirty minutes before eating itself, that kind of thing.

I'm sure there are still spots where one golden bullet can bring it
down, but it's a tough bird as helicopters go.

The Comanche was designed to take a 23 mm hit over anywhere its entire
structure* by using a composite Kevlar reinforced body shell as its
fuselage.
The whole thing was built like a Mosquito bomber, where the monocoque
exterior of its body formed the main structural strength of it, with
only minimal interior reinforcement and bracing. Basically a giant
plastic model helicopter where the fuselage halves are entirely hollow
inside.

* I'd like to see them try that on the cockpit windowpanes, BTW.
Ballistic polycarbonate that's bullet resistant is one thing; ballistic
polycarbonate that's proof against 23 mm HE fire is quite another.
Easy enough to test though...tape a hand grenade onto it, and pull the
pin. :-)

Pat

wrote:
I seem to remember reading that the rotors were supposedly 20mm
proof.....


23 mm resistant.
Soviet's go straight from 14.5 mm to 23 mm with no intermediate step.
Then they hop up to 30 mm, 37mm, and 57 mm.


Pat

"Ed" wrote in message
...

"Jim Beaver" wrote in message
...
An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
"The
Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.

I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. Has
anyone
here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
this story?

Jim Beaver


Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't the
Army the only user, not the Marines??

That's one of the reasons I'm trying to confirm the statement in the
article. Despite being an ex-Marine, I have no idea as to the answer.
(When I left the Marines, the Huey was pretty new.)

Jim Beaver

"Jim Beaver" wrote in message
...

"Ed" wrote in message
...

"Jim Beaver" wrote in message
...
An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
"The
Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.

I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. Has
anyone
here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
this story?

Jim Beaver


Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't the
Army the only user, not the Marines??

That's one of the reasons I'm trying to confirm the statement in the
article. Despite being an ex-Marine, I have no idea as to the answer.
(When I left the Marines, the Huey was pretty new.)

Jim Beaver


I worked briefly at the Apache facory in Mesa AZ rewiring the A model into
Longbows or D model, I had opportunities to chat with people who had been
with the program from the start. This included the Chief Test pilot who
made a point of telling everyone how he let Sen Barry Goldwater handle the
flight controls while the competition (the Commanche?) wouldn't let the
senator handle the controls. Supposedly this was why the Apache won the
contract. He wound up ****ing someone off, got fired and then sued and got
his "job" back however while they had to pay him as a chief test pilot they
didn't have to let him work as one so they made him a line supervisor in the
factory who was my boss for an even briefer time.

What I heard was that they had done everything on paper to navalise the
AH-64 and then made an offer to the Marines but that was as far as it went,
PAPER. My understanding was as far as navalisation goes it was easier to
stick with the Cobra and upgrade the weapons and avionics than to make an an
Apache that could withstand long periods in a salt water environment. I'm
guessing but the blades were probably the biggest hang up. You'd have to
mod them to fold and make sure they could handle a salt water environment.

There are 8 or so Apaches with tie-down rings welded to the bottom of the
fuselage. This was done for the invasion of Granada in 1983.

Can't say their weren't Marine prototypes built but based on what I heard I
doubt it.