Coordinated turns without rudder, and autopilots

On May 28, 8:11 am, Ron Natalie wrote:
Dan wrote:
On May 27, 5:44 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
How do autopilots make coordinated turns even when they cannot control the
rudder?

If they don't control the rudder, they do not make coordinated turns!

--Dan

Boy we have the blind leading the blind here.

The whole point of that big vertical slab of metal sticking out of the
ass-end of your airplane is to provide a natural tendency for the
aircraft to fly coordinated. The pedals are just there for the
outlying conditions (low speed, high AOA for example) and fine
adjustment.

Ron...

oh my goodness...get some time with a good book on the subject and
then a CFI.

Robert

On May 28, 11:59 am, Luke Skywalker wrote:
On May 28, 8:11 am, Ron Natalie wrote:





Dan wrote:
On May 27, 5:44 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
How do autopilots make coordinated turns even when they cannot control the
rudder?

If they don't control the rudder, they do not make coordinated turns!

--Dan

Boy we have the blind leading the blind here.

The whole point of that big vertical slab of metal sticking out of the
ass-end of your airplane is to provide a natural tendency for the
aircraft to fly coordinated. The pedals are just there for the
outlying conditions (low speed, high AOA for example) and fine
adjustment.

Ron...

oh my goodness...get some time with a good book on the subject and
then a CFI.

Robert- Hide quoted text -



Ron is correct. The vertical fin makes the airplane weather-vane into
the wind, and that's what co-ordination is all about. The rudder is
there only to help the vertical stab do this job.

A perfect airplane will not need rudder.

On May 28, 10:26 am, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
On May 28, 11:59 am, Luke Skywalker wrote:





On May 28, 8:11 am, Ron Natalie wrote:

Dan wrote:
On May 27, 5:44 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
How do autopilots make coordinated turns even when they cannot control the
rudder?

If they don't control the rudder, they do not make coordinated turns!

--Dan

Boy we have the blind leading the blind here.

The whole point of that big vertical slab of metal sticking out of the
ass-end of your airplane is to provide a natural tendency for the
aircraft to fly coordinated. The pedals are just there for the
outlying conditions (low speed, high AOA for example) and fine
adjustment.

Ron...

oh my goodness...get some time with a good book on the subject and
then a CFI.

Robert- Hide quoted text -

Ron is correct. The vertical fin makes the airplane weather-vane into
the wind, and that's what co-ordination is all about. The rudder is
there only to help the vertical stab do this job.

A perfect airplane will not need rudder.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So where is this perfect airplane? I don't know about you, but I need
the rudder pedals to fly the aircraft.

--Dan

"Dan" wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 28, 10:26 am, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
On May 28, 11:59 am, Luke Skywalker wrote:





On May 28, 8:11 am, Ron Natalie wrote:

Dan wrote:
On May 27, 5:44 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
How do autopilots make coordinated turns even when they cannot
control the
rudder?

If they don't control the rudder, they do not make coordinated
turns!

--Dan

Boy we have the blind leading the blind here.

The whole point of that big vertical slab of metal sticking out of
the
ass-end of your airplane is to provide a natural tendency for the
aircraft to fly coordinated. The pedals are just there for the
outlying conditions (low speed, high AOA for example) and fine
adjustment.

Ron...

oh my goodness...get some time with a good book on the subject and
then a CFI.

Robert- Hide quoted text -

Ron is correct. The vertical fin makes the airplane weather-vane into
the wind, and that's what co-ordination is all about. The rudder is
there only to help the vertical stab do this job.

A perfect airplane will not need rudder.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So where is this perfect airplane? I don't know about you, but I need
the rudder pedals to fly the aircraft.

--Dan

Basically the vertical stabilizer is there for directional stability and to
control yaw; the rudder is there to change yaw. This is VERY basic, but you
can say that the rudder is there to keep the tail alligned with the nose
:-))
Rudder use to acheive the objective of keeping the tail lined up with the
nose can accurately be said to be relative to aircraft type and airspeed.
You need a fair amount of rudder to handle yawfor example in a typical light
general aviation type airplane to execute a coordinated turn entry and exit.
On the other hand however, in a T38, you can fly a complete aerobatic
sequence including point rolls with both feet planted firmly on the floor of
the rudder tunnels.
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques writes:

Rudder use to acheive the objective of keeping the tail lined up with the
nose can accurately be said to be relative to aircraft type and airspeed.
You need a fair amount of rudder to handle yawfor example in a typical light
general aviation type airplane to execute a coordinated turn entry and exit.

So how does the autopilot do it? As far as I understand, autopilots in small
aircraft don't generally have control over the rudder, and yet they can
execute coordinated turns.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Dudley Henriques writes:

Rudder use to acheive the objective of keeping the tail lined up with
the nose can accurately be said to be relative to aircraft type and
airspeed. You need a fair amount of rudder to handle yawfor example
in a typical light general aviation type airplane to execute a
coordinated turn entry and exit.

So how does the autopilot do it?

It doesn't, fjukkkwit.


bertie

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques writes:

Rudder use to acheive the objective of keeping the tail lined up with the
nose can accurately be said to be relative to aircraft type and airspeed.
You need a fair amount of rudder to handle yawfor example in a typical
light
general aviation type airplane to execute a coordinated turn entry and
exit.

So how does the autopilot do it? As far as I understand, autopilots in
small
aircraft don't generally have control over the rudder, and yet they can
execute coordinated turns.

What in the world makes you think that an autopilot can make a "coordinated"
turn without using the rudder if a pilot can't? That's complete and utter
nonsense.

If you have "observed" this then, either A) Your simulation falls a bit
short in terms of simulating how the simulated autopilot works - I assume
it's easier to program a simulated autopilot without adding the "make it
appear un-coordinated" feature. Or, B) You only think that the autopilot
does a much better job than a pilot does - perhaps you are a bit ham-fisted
with your simulation - without ever being in in airplane, it would be easy
to not realize what you are doing given the lack of feedback and the fact
that no one has ever "flown" with you - I find that I "overcontrol" when
flying a sim...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com writes:

What in the world makes you think that an autopilot can make a "coordinated"
turn without using the rudder if a pilot can't?

Presumably a pilot can; I want to know how. And nobody has been able to tell
me thus far.

If you have "observed" this then, either A) Your simulation falls a bit
short in terms of simulating how the simulated autopilot works - I assume
it's easier to program a simulated autopilot without adding the "make it
appear un-coordinated" feature. Or, B) You only think that the autopilot
does a much better job than a pilot does - perhaps you are a bit ham-fisted
with your simulation - without ever being in in airplane, it would be easy
to not realize what you are doing given the lack of feedback and the fact
that no one has ever "flown" with you - I find that I "overcontrol" when
flying a sim...

Or (C) nobody here has a clue and nobody wants to admit it, even though their
argument among themselves makes it obvious.

Do you know how it's done, or don't you?

..
On the other hand however, in a T38, you can fly a complete aerobatic
sequence including point rolls with both feet planted firmly on the floor of
the rudder tunnels.
Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've always wanted to fly a 38 but never had the opportunity...
My Super Viking was one of those few GA machines with adequate tail
volume that you could fly instrument approaches with your feet on the
floor... Conversely, you could fly the plane nicely without ailerons
just using that powerful rudder...

One of the little tricks I do when 'unbrain washing' the pilots I have
helped over the years, is to say to them that: "you have just snapped
the cables to the ailerons and the elevator... now fly me back to the
airport without touching the yoke!"... Some have been totally
helpless... A few have almost instantly figured it out.. And most need
only be shown how for a few seconds... The majority have been amazed
after they successfully herded the plane a dozen miles back to the
airport and it is gratifying to see the light bulb in their head
suddenly light up as they begin to understand how the controls
actually work...

denny

The same is pretty much true for the F-16, at least from my less than 100
hours experience. It's usually feet on the floor, and the flight control
system works the various control surfaces..