How capable are Saudi F-15s?

"Daryl Hunt" wrote in message ...
"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:57:05 -0400, Brian
wrote:

"phil hunt" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:44:43 GMT, Matt Wiser
wrote:
I wonder why SA bought them? Certainly, if I was trying to buy
something and the shop would only sell me second-rate gear, I would
say "fine, I'll take my custom to Mr Sukhoi (or Mr Mikoyan or Mr
Dassault...) down the street".

Because at the time the Saudi's purchased the F-15's, MiG had nothing
even
comparable to a "second rate" F-15.

MiG aren't the only people making aircraft. Saudi Arabia could have
bought a Su-27 derivative such as the Su-30.

Sorry, but the same reasoning still applies--the F-15 was offered to
the world well before the Su-27 was. Service entry for the F-15 was
1976; the Flanker B (the first one that could rival (arguably) the
F-15) did not enter Soviet service until 1986.


It's not the same as the non export Su-27. Much like our Export F-15 has
some changes as well for export

They could have bought
the Mirage 2000.

Again, look at the timing--IOC in French service in 84, eight years
after the Eagle had entered operational US service with 1st TFW. ISTR
that the Saudi F-15's were entering service sometime around when the
French themselves were placing the 2000 into service?


Both the Su-27 and the F-15 would have it for lunch even in the export
version.

Yep.


If they wanted a bomber, they already operate the
Tornado so could have bought more of them.

Great little Tactical Bomber but not a frontline fighter. Better to
purchase the export F-16 from the US and save a bundle.


If they were willing to
wait a while, they could have ordered the Gripen, Rafale or Typhoon.
(For the last 2, Saudi money may well have accelerated development,
since defence cutbacks in European countries delayed it).

One reason the Saudis may have chosen US is they could have taken Military
Hardware for Oil.

Not to mention that the idea of waiting another fifteen to twenty
years was NOT a realistic option for the Saudis in the early/mid
eighties.

Brooks

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 05:01:59 -0600, Daryl Hunt wrote:


MiG aren't the only people making aircraft. Saudi Arabia could have
bought a Su-27 derivative such as the Su-30.

It's not the same as the non export Su-27.

If anything, it's better -- the Russians can't afford to buy the
best planes.

They could have bought the Mirage 2000.

Both the Su-27 and the F-15 would have it for lunch even in the export
version.

That's probably true.

If they wanted a bomber, they already operate the
Tornado so could have bought more of them.

Great little Tactical Bomber but not a frontline fighter.

Indeed; the OP stated that SA bought many to be bombers.

If they were willing to
wait a while, they could have ordered the Gripen, Rafale or Typhoon.
(For the last 2, Saudi money may well have accelerated development,
since defence cutbacks in European countries delayed it).

One reason the Saudis may have chosen US is they could have taken Military
Hardware for Oil.

And other people wouldn't?

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"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:44:43 GMT, Matt Wiser
wrote:

72 birds were sold to Saudi and began delivery in 1995. Two dozen are
optimized
for air combat, while 48 were optimized for air-to-mud. Downtuned EW (not
good against Western gear, for example)

I wonder why SA bought them? Certainly, if I was trying to buy
something and the shop would only sell me second-rate gear, I would
say "fine, I'll take my custom to Mr Sukhoi (or Mr Mikoyan or Mr
Dassault...) down the street".

You assume the Saudis "knew" the birds were downrated. Do you know that for
sure?

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:45:55 GMT, Ragnar wrote:

"phil hunt" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:44:43 GMT, Matt Wiser
wrote:

72 birds were sold to Saudi and began delivery in 1995. Two dozen are
optimized
for air combat, while 48 were optimized for air-to-mud. Downtuned EW (not
good against Western gear, for example)

I wonder why SA bought them? Certainly, if I was trying to buy
something and the shop would only sell me second-rate gear, I would
say "fine, I'll take my custom to Mr Sukhoi (or Mr Mikoyan or Mr
Dassault...) down the street".

You assume the Saudis "knew" the birds were downrated. Do you know that for
sure?

Not for sure, but my recollection was that there was a big public
debate in the US govmt about whether to sell them, and selling
downgraded ones was the compromise that came out of the debate. The
Saudis must have been aware that the debate was going on.

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A: top posting

Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?

Hi Matt,

According to my sources the RSAF has never kept 24 S-model jets optimised
for air-to-air - that's one of those urban rumours that seems to go on
forever. :-)

It was a long while before the Cat V tangential carriage CFTs were delivered
to the RSAF (Congress did not approve them for a number of years), so the
S-model was limited to operating with MERs. The Saudis were supplied CFTs
from the start, but these were devoid of any BRU-46 and BRU-47 air-to-ground
hardpoints. They did feature LAU-106 air-to-air attachments, however.

In avionics terms, the F-15S lacks some key LANTIRN modes and has downtuned
air-to-air radar and air-to-ground modes (with some 'special modes' deleted
altogether). Additional capabilities - such as AAQ-14 automatic hand-off to
Maverick - have also been deleted in addition to your mention of downgraded
ICMS capabilities.

For anyone who's interested, there's a complete overview of the F-15S and
RSAF operators in my new Strike Eagle book, out 22 September and available
from Amazon and all good book stores: "F-15E Strike Eagle; All Weather
Attack Aircraft" ISBN 1840 373 784

--
Steve Davies
"F-15 Eagle & Strike Eagle. Combat Legends" ISBN 1840 373 776
"F-15E Strike Eagle; All Weather Attack Aircraft" ISBN 1840 373 784
www.f-15e.net



"Matt Wiser" wrote in message
news:3f61ea24$1@bg2....

Hobo wrote:

TIA
72 birds were sold to Saudi and began delivery in 1995. Two dozen are
optimized
for air combat, while 48 were optimized for air-to-mud. Downtuned EW (not
good against Western gear, for example)
However, CFTs, MER racks, GBU-10/12, GBU-15, AGM-65, plus CBUs and
Mk-82/84
in quantity.