Kills with Guns

No Crusader gun kills?

If I'm not mistaken, there were only 3-4 kills out of the 19-20 that the
Crusader got in Vietnam. The rest were Sidewinder kills. So like I said
below, this goes against the idea of the gun being critical to a-a success
in Vietnam. Only a fool would argue that it wouldn't have helped to have a
gun on all the F-4s, but it wouldn't have been as revolutionary as some
claim IMO. There were F-4 gun kills too, but again, far fewer than missile
kills (even for the -E). ROE, training, NCTR, and missile reliability were
the more critical factors IMO.

TV

On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:25:48 -0400, "TV" wrote:

No Crusader gun kills?

If I'm not mistaken, there were only 3-4 kills out of the 19-20 that the
Crusader got in Vietnam. The rest were Sidewinder kills. So like I said
below, this goes against the idea of the gun being critical to a-a success
in Vietnam. Only a fool would argue that it wouldn't have helped to have a
gun on all the F-4s, but it wouldn't have been as revolutionary as some
claim IMO. There were F-4 gun kills too, but again, far fewer than missile
kills (even for the -E). ROE, training, NCTR, and missile reliability were
the more critical factors IMO.

TV


There were quite a few F-4E gun kill in SEA and even several F-4D pod
gun kills. Dee Simmons got two with a podded gun. Saw Big D a couple
of days ago at Robin Olds' memorial service.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

There were quite a few F-4E gun kill in SEA and even several F-4D pod
gun kills. Dee Simmons got two with a podded gun. Saw Big D a couple
of days ago at Robin Olds' memorial service.

Olds died and it wasn't even mentioned here!?! Wow. For a long time, based
on interview snippets I heard from him, I thought he was an arrogant git.
But I saw a TV interview of him, that was fairly recent, where a lot of
those comments were shown to be taken out of context. Confident, yes. Git,
not. Great stories in general, and he definitely projected a solid image.

Coincidentally Ed, I'm just reading Palace Cobra now. I might have more
questions when I finish, but for now do you mind if I ask:

1- Relating to this thread, what do you think was most missing from U.S.
A-A? Guns, more reliable missiles, better ROE, Combat Tree (NCTR), or better
communication (like when you guys got robbed of thos Migs- the
"Mig-hoarding" of Udorn reminds me of the 55th in Desert Storm)? Or just
more Migs?

2- Would you have prefered to fly the F-105G or the F-4E for your missions?
For the planes as well as for the separate hunter/killer missions.

3- This relating to Olds. I also recently read Going Downtown. Having read
Thud Ridge a long time ago, it was also pretty decent. Broughton certainly
didn't suffer from lack of confidence either! I know you and the other
River Rats don't feel the warmest feelings towards him, but I was wondering
why when he was on trial (and Yeager was backing him up, so he couldn't have
been a total buffoon), Olds backed away from the trial. Career politics or
something more personal? I certainly don't want to much rake Olds in any
way, I'm curious about the history of the moment. General Ryan certainly
seemed like a jack-ass.

4- Did they really conduct an ORI in the middle of a successful air
campaign?!

Thanks,

TV

"TV" wrote in message
...
Olds died and it wasn't even mentioned here!?! Wow. For a long time,
based on interview snippets I heard from him, I thought he was an arrogant
git. But I saw a TV interview of him, that was fairly recent, where a lot
of those comments were shown to be taken out of context. Confident, yes.
Git, not. Great stories in general, and he definitely projected a solid
image.

Certainly was covered here. Remember though the memorial service was held
on the 30th he died on the 14th.

Tex Houston

Certainly was covered here. Remember though the memorial service was held
on the 30th he died on the 14th.

Huh, I don't have any such thread from the 14th onwards showing up. Darn
newsgroup provider!

TV

"TV" wrote in message
...
Certainly was covered here. Remember though the memorial service was
held on the 30th he died on the 14th.

Huh, I don't have any such thread from the 14th onwards showing up. Darn
newsgroup provider!

TV

Certainly possible I'm wrong. I received about twenty notices the first
couple of days. By the way, it was a great send off.

Tex Houston

On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:54:12 -0400, "TV" wrote:

Coincidentally Ed, I'm just reading Palace Cobra now. I might have more
questions when I finish, but for now do you mind if I ask:

1- Relating to this thread, what do you think was most missing from U.S.
A-A? Guns, more reliable missiles, better ROE, Combat Tree (NCTR), or better
communication (like when you guys got robbed of thos Migs- the
"Mig-hoarding" of Udorn reminds me of the 55th in Desert Storm)? Or just
more Migs?

Training--realistic, concentrated, dissimilar training.
Tactics--abandonment of welded wing and training in fluid attack/loose
deuce mutual support tactics.

I always had a gun--both F-105 and F-4E. Not a factor. Missile
reliability was. Poor training in AIM-7 applications was an issue.
Only Fighter Weapons School guys in USAF got really concentrated
training in the Sparrow. Frequent carriage of the missiles with
attendant thumps, bumps and stresses caused deterioration and low
reliability.

ROE was definitely a factor. Required VID for most of the war for most
of the players. No airfield strikes until Linebacker was another
issue.

Combat Tree was a late technology advance and would have made a
difference as well.

2- Would you have prefered to fly the F-105G or the F-4E for your missions?
For the planes as well as for the separate hunter/killer missions.

As the "killer" element, I liked the F-4E. It was compatible with the
F-105G and carried a good load with good systems. When it was
available in the early years, the F-105D (single seat) was a good
killer as well.

3- This relating to Olds. I also recently read Going Downtown. Having read
Thud Ridge a long time ago, it was also pretty decent. Broughton certainly
didn't suffer from lack of confidence either! I know you and the other
River Rats don't feel the warmest feelings towards him, but I was wondering
why when he was on trial (and Yeager was backing him up, so he couldn't have
been a total buffoon), Olds backed away from the trial. Career politics or
something more personal? I certainly don't want to much rake Olds in any
way, I'm curious about the history of the moment. General Ryan certainly
seemed like a jack-ass.

Olds was airborne and just a few miles N. of Haiphong during the
Turkestan incident. He actually saw the strafing occur. I spoke with
him about it (actually he spoke and I listened,) a few years ago. He
recalled being astonished that someone was doing that since the ship
and the restrictions were specifically briefed that morning!

He was investigating officer for 13th AF on the incident. He didn't
think too much of Broughton's actions.

4- Did they really conduct an ORI in the middle of a successful air
campaign?!

The ORI took place in January of '73, right after completion of
Linebacker II, exactly as recounted in Palace Cobra. (I still see Turk
Turley ever year at River Rats reunions.)


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Just finished the book Ed. A good read. The most depressing part is that
once again, it's clear that the military works like too many other human
endeavours. Who you know matters more than what you know in terms of how
the organization runs. And in a very real way, like other organizations,
skill actually works AGAINST promotion. Good pilots are more likely to take
risks and pay the price, good politicians serve their constituents instead
of their re-election interests, good professors their research instead of
their careers, etc.

As for the book, one more question: What happened to Sopin? If it's in
there, I must have missed how the relationship ended.

Oh, and one more question (I sound like Columbo!): it just struck me that in
almost every fighter book I've read, heavy drinking features prominently.
Was alcoholism (vs. binge drinking) ever a real problem?

TV

On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 00:01:57 -0400, "TV" wrote:

Just finished the book Ed. A good read. The most depressing part is that
once again, it's clear that the military works like too many other human
endeavours. Who you know matters more than what you know in terms of how
the organization runs. And in a very real way, like other organizations,
skill actually works AGAINST promotion. Good pilots are more likely to take
risks and pay the price, good politicians serve their constituents instead
of their re-election interests, good professors their research instead of
their careers, etc.

Strangely enough, in the USAF, the aviator career specialty is the
only profession in which comment in performance reports on your
primary duty was expressly prohibited. While a personnel weenie could
get a glowing write-up about his/her skill at manageing the paperwork,
a fighter pilot got his comments on how he performed his additional
duties. (See comments regarding CTF Officer or Roscoe Control Officer
in Palace Cobra.)

As for the book, one more question: What happened to Sopin? If it's in
there, I must have missed how the relationship ended.

Left in Thailand. It's often a harsh world. Divorced the wife when I
returned to US and proceeded to several years of assignments in
Europe.

Oh, and one more question (I sound like Columbo!): it just struck me that in
almost every fighter book I've read, heavy drinking features prominently.
Was alcoholism (vs. binge drinking) ever a real problem?

Folks deal with their fears in many ways. Some used alcohol to cope.
Fighter pilots tend to live life very strenuously and inevitably some
pay a price.


TV


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com