Impact of Eurofighters in the Middle East

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:11:24 GMT, Tom Cooper wrote:


Then no-one with any sense will buy from them. Note that in
mass-market software, this is already happening: many countries[1]
are moving away from Microsoft Windows towards Linux because they
don't want the US govmt to spy on them, or to be dependent on forign
technology.


[1]: e.g. Germany, Peru, Venezuela, Brazil, Thailand, China, Japan,
South Korea.

Nonsense

I work for a software company that has versions of its product
available on various flavours of Unix including Linux as well
as Windows. We havent made a new Unix sale in 5 years,
the overwhelming demand is for NT/Win2k/XP versions
and that includes clients in Germany, China, Japan and
South Korea.

For specialist applications some organisations withing those
countries may well choose Linux, we use it for our web
servers but I'll bet that 90%+ of the PC's on desks in
those nations are running Windows

Keith

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:43:24 +0100, Keith Willshaw wrote:

"phil hunt" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:11:24 GMT, Tom Cooper wrote:


Then no-one with any sense will buy from them. Note that in
mass-market software, this is already happening: many countries[1]
are moving away from Microsoft Windows towards Linux because they
don't want the US govmt to spy on them, or to be dependent on forign
technology.


[1]: e.g. Germany, Peru, Venezuela, Brazil, Thailand, China, Japan,
South Korea.

Nonsense

I work for a software company that has versions of its product
available on various flavours of Unix including Linux as well
as Windows. We havent made a new Unix sale in 5 years,
the overwhelming demand is for NT/Win2k/XP versions
and that includes clients in Germany, China, Japan and
South Korea.

So the fact that people don't apparently want to use the Unix
version of *one particular software package*, is somehow meant to
indicate that the govmts of these countries haven't set up
initiatives to switch some or all of computers in govmt use to
Linux?

If that's the state of your logic, I hope they don't employ you as
a programmer! BTW, the last car I owned was made by an American
company; this proves that no companies outside the USA manufacture
motor vehicles.

For specialist applications some organisations withing those
countries may well choose Linux, we use it for our web
servers but I'll bet that 90%+ of the PC's on desks in
those nations are running Windows

Yes, you're probably right -- after all, if no-one was using
Windows, then there would be no desire to switch from Windows. The
question is, what will they be using in 5 or 10 years time?

--
A: top posting

Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:43:24 +0100, Keith Willshaw
wrote:



So the fact that people don't apparently want to use the Unix
version of *one particular software package*, is somehow meant to
indicate that the govmts of these countries haven't set up
initiatives to switch some or all of computers in govmt use to
Linux?


Erm no

We are a multinational who write MANY software packages.
But feel free to browse the web for commercial software developed
for Linux and compare that developed for Windows.

If that's the state of your logic, I hope they don't employ you as
a programmer! BTW, the last car I owned was made by an American
company; this proves that no companies outside the USA manufacture
motor vehicles.


I am only commenting on the reality of our customers
preferences, personally I prefer Unix but the reality is
most end users dont, Dell had it as an option on their
PC's for a a while, they dropped it from the Desktop range
due to lack of interest

For specialist applications some organisations withing those
countries may well choose Linux, we use it for our web
servers but I'll bet that 90%+ of the PC's on desks in
those nations are running Windows

Yes, you're probably right -- after all, if no-one was using
Windows, then there would be no desire to switch from Windows. The
question is, what will they be using in 5 or 10 years time?


If I knew I'd be investing in it not talking about it, that said
governments have a poor track record in forecasting IT
developments. The fact that the French Government backed
Linux would hardly be a confidence builder.

Keith

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:23:52 +0100, Keith Willshaw wrote:

Erm no

We are a multinational who write MANY software packages.
But feel free to browse the web for commercial software developed
for Linux and compare that developed for Windows.

There's a lot less for Linux. But Linux's market share is growing
anyway. Why? Because commercial software is getting less important,
and open source software more important.

For an increasing number of application spheres -- note I'm not
claiming for everything -- open source is the best solution for the
job. Web servers being a good example.

If that's the state of your logic, I hope they don't employ you as
a programmer! BTW, the last car I owned was made by an American
company; this proves that no companies outside the USA manufacture
motor vehicles.

I am only commenting on the reality of our customers
preferences, personally I prefer Unix but the reality is
most end users dont,

Have most end users even used Linux? I contend that for many tasks
-- examples being browsing the web, reading email and Usenet, doing
word processing, Linux-based systems do the job perfectly well,
without the issues of cost, insecurity and vendor lock-in associated
with Microsoft.

Dell had it as an option on their
PC's for a a while, they dropped it from the Desktop range
due to lack of interest

Indeed. I'm not saying Linux will conquer the desktop tomorrow.
It'll make headway on servers first, and in middle-income countries
(those that are rich enough to have lots of computers, but poor
enough that the cost of MS Windows and Office is problematic). It'll
also make headway in cultures where localisation is a problem and MS
don't have adequate solutions with local fonts, translations etc.

Then it'll make big headway in the office in western countries.
Microsoft is likely to hold onto the games market longer than
anywhere else.

If I knew I'd be investing in it not talking about it, that said
governments have a poor track record in forecasting IT
developments.

But it's easier to predict the future if you make it.

--
A: top posting

Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:23:52 +0100, Keith Willshaw
wrote:

Erm no

We are a multinational who write MANY software packages.
But feel free to browse the web for commercial software developed
for Linux and compare that developed for Windows.

There's a lot less for Linux. But Linux's market share is growing
anyway. Why? Because commercial software is getting less important,
and open source software more important.


Oh come on , what percentage of PC users even own a C++
compiler let lone know how to use it ?

For an increasing number of application spheres -- note I'm not
claiming for everything -- open source is the best solution for the
job. Web servers being a good example.


I'll grant you that for server aplications UNIX is clearly superior

If that's the state of your logic, I hope they don't employ you as
a programmer! BTW, the last car I owned was made by an American
company; this proves that no companies outside the USA manufacture
motor vehicles.

I am only commenting on the reality of our customers
preferences, personally I prefer Unix but the reality is
most end users dont,

Have most end users even used Linux?

No, which is rather the point.

I contend that for many tasks
-- examples being browsing the web, reading email and Usenet, doing
word processing, Linux-based systems do the job perfectly well,

But they lack the market share

without the issues of cost, insecurity and vendor lock-in associated
with Microsoft.

Dell had it as an option on their
PC's for a a while, they dropped it from the Desktop range
due to lack of interest

Indeed. I'm not saying Linux will conquer the desktop tomorrow.
It'll make headway on servers first, and in middle-income countries
(those that are rich enough to have lots of computers, but poor
enough that the cost of MS Windows and Office is problematic). It'll
also make headway in cultures where localisation is a problem and MS
don't have adequate solutions with local fonts, translations etc.


Microsoft have at least as good a selection of foreign fonts
and character sets as any implementation of Unix I've seen


Then it'll make big headway in the office in western countries.
Microsoft is likely to hold onto the games market longer than
anywhere else.


Actually thats where third party software is most succesful

If I knew I'd be investing in it not talking about it, that said
governments have a poor track record in forecasting IT
developments.

But it's easier to predict the future if you make it.


Its even easier to go bust ignoring what your customers
demand, we can sell em Unix versions tomorrow, we
still support it for existing customers and they are on the
price book but I dont expect to sell any.

Keith

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:47:44 +0100, Keith Willshaw wrote:

"phil hunt" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:23:52 +0100, Keith Willshaw
wrote:

Erm no

We are a multinational who write MANY software packages.
But feel free to browse the web for commercial software developed
for Linux and compare that developed for Windows.

There's a lot less for Linux. But Linux's market share is growing
anyway. Why? Because commercial software is getting less important,
and open source software more important.

Oh come on , what percentage of PC users even own a C++
compiler let lone know how to use it ?

Firstly you don't need to have (I don't use the word "own" because
if its a proprietary C++ compiler, you never own it in any
meaningful way) a C++ compiler to use open sourcve software, since
for many packages they are either asvailable with the distribution
on CDROM/DVDROM, or can be downloaded in compiled form.

For example, I am composing this message on an open-source text
editor which is running as part of an open-source nntp reader; I
didn't have to compile either program.

Secondly, when someone (e.g. a network administrator) does have to
compile, it's usually no more complicated than:

../configure
make
make install

These commands are easy to learn, and the same for the vast majority
of open source packages written in C/C++. For packages written in
scripting languages (Perl, Python), or web applications (PHP), no
compilation is necessary. For Java packages, distribution is
typically using Java's JAR format: you just put the .jar file in the
relevant directory.

I contend that for many tasks
-- examples being browsing the web, reading email and Usenet, doing
word processing, Linux-based systems do the job perfectly well,

But they lack the market share

For now.

The world's most populous country is going for Linux in a big way.
How much market share will open-soruce apps have in 2010?

Indeed. I'm not saying Linux will conquer the desktop tomorrow.
It'll make headway on servers first, and in middle-income countries
(those that are rich enough to have lots of computers, but poor
enough that the cost of MS Windows and Office is problematic). It'll
also make headway in cultures where localisation is a problem and MS
don't have adequate solutions with local fonts, translations etc.

Microsoft have at least as good a selection of foreign fonts
and character sets as any implementation of Unix I've seen

Perhaps. Though there is at least one language I'm aware of (Farsi)
for which the quality of MS character sets is poor enough to
incentivize people to create Linux/X11 character sets for. I'm sure
there are other languages/charsets for which this is true.

And it's not jsut the characters, it's the words. If you speak a
less-well-known language, then MS won't supply a version of Windows
or Office using commands, emnu items etc in your language. And
there's nothing you can do about it -- in the Microsoft would, you
get what Billy**** says you can have, and if you dson't like it,
tough.

In the Linux world, it's different. If the KDE or GNOME front ends
don't have support for your preferred language, you can just write
them yourself.

Then it'll make big headway in the office in western countries.
Microsoft is likely to hold onto the games market longer than
anywhere else.

Actually thats where third party software is most succesful

Yes, running on the Microsoft OS. That's really the only area that
Linux is inferior right now. On the PC I'm using to write this, I
use Linux for everything except playing games, when I switch over to
Win98.

If I knew I'd be investing in it not talking about it, that said
governments have a poor track record in forecasting IT
developments.

But it's easier to predict the future if you make it.

Its even easier to go bust ignoring what your customers
demand,

I don't see govmts going bust, that's not really a consideration for
them.

we can sell em Unix versions tomorrow, we
still support it for existing customers and they are on the
price book but I dont expect to sell any.

So what sort of products are we talking about here?

--
A: top posting

Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:47:44 +0100, Keith Willshaw
wrote:

"phil hunt" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:23:52 +0100, Keith Willshaw
wrote:

Erm no

We are a multinational who write MANY software packages.
But feel free to browse the web for commercial software developed
for Linux and compare that developed for Windows.

There's a lot less for Linux. But Linux's market share is growing
anyway. Why? Because commercial software is getting less important,
and open source software more important.

Oh come on , what percentage of PC users even own a C++
compiler let lone know how to use it ?

Firstly you don't need to have (I don't use the word "own" because
if its a proprietary C++ compiler, you never own it in any
meaningful way) a C++ compiler to use open sourcve software, since
for many packages they are either asvailable with the distribution
on CDROM/DVDROM, or can be downloaded in compiled form.

For example, I am composing this message on an open-source text
editor which is running as part of an open-source nntp reader; I
didn't have to compile either program.

Secondly, when someone (e.g. a network administrator) does have to
compile, it's usually no more complicated than:

./configure
make
make install


All of which negates the point of open source which is to
be able to make changes. Frankly all Joe Blow wants
is to be able to pop his CD in the drive and hit
the OK Button when its asks if he wants to install it.

These commands are easy to learn, and the same for the vast majority
of open source packages written in C/C++. For packages written in
scripting languages (Perl, Python), or web applications (PHP), no
compilation is necessary. For Java packages, distribution is
typically using Java's JAR format: you just put the .jar file in the
relevant directory.


Java is however horribly resource intense and its garbage
collecting strategy is quirky to say the least


I contend that for many tasks
-- examples being browsing the web, reading email and Usenet, doing
word processing, Linux-based systems do the job perfectly well,

But they lack the market share

For now.

The world's most populous country is going for Linux in a big way.
How much market share will open-soruce apps have in 2010?


That depends on whether or not they software writers ever get
paid for their work, that market is notorious for piracy.

Indeed. I'm not saying Linux will conquer the desktop tomorrow.
It'll make headway on servers first, and in middle-income countries
(those that are rich enough to have lots of computers, but poor
enough that the cost of MS Windows and Office is problematic). It'll
also make headway in cultures where localisation is a problem and MS
don't have adequate solutions with local fonts, translations etc.

Microsoft have at least as good a selection of foreign fonts
and character sets as any implementation of Unix I've seen

Perhaps. Though there is at least one language I'm aware of (Farsi)
for which the quality of MS character sets is poor enough to
incentivize people to create Linux/X11 character sets for. I'm sure
there are other languages/charsets for which this is true.

And it's not jsut the characters, it's the words. If you speak a
less-well-known language, then MS won't supply a version of Windows
or Office using commands, emnu items etc in your language. And
there's nothing you can do about it -- in the Microsoft would, you
get what Billy**** says you can have, and if you dson't like it,
tough.


True to a large degree for Windows but certainly not so for Office

With MS Office you can write add-ins that replace
all the menus with your own in your own language, make
your own buttons with bitmaps and add new functions.

The object model is fully documented and you can even
hook into the events and methods and write your own handlers.
Been there, done that.

If you dont want to use a compiler you can do it with
VBA, done that too. We use Excel as a front end to a
whole group of analysis programs just because its
so easy to interface and the object model is so well
defined.

In the Linux world, it's different. If the KDE or GNOME front ends
don't have support for your preferred language, you can just write
them yourself.


Take a look at COM Add-ins for Office some time

Then it'll make big headway in the office in western countries.
Microsoft is likely to hold onto the games market longer than
anywhere else.

Actually thats where third party software is most succesful

Yes, running on the Microsoft OS. That's really the only area that
Linux is inferior right now. On the PC I'm using to write this, I
use Linux for everything except playing games, when I switch over to
Win98.

If I knew I'd be investing in it not talking about it, that said
governments have a poor track record in forecasting IT
developments.

But it's easier to predict the future if you make it.

Its even easier to go bust ignoring what your customers
demand,

I don't see govmts going bust, that's not really a consideration for
them.


Governments arent the main customers for software.
We sell in France , Germany, Japan, Korea, Taiwan,
the USA, UK etc etc,few if any of the licenses we sell
are to national governments. A few are to nationalised
indusries like EdF but thats a minority and they are
switching from Unix to Win2K


we can sell em Unix versions tomorrow, we
still support it for existing customers and they are on the
price book but I dont expect to sell any.

So what sort of products are we talking about here?


Process Simulation, Equipment Design , Supply Chain
Management, Conceptual Design, Collaborative Engineering
etc etc

http://www.aspentech.com/

Keith

Keith Willshaw wrote:

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..

I contend that for many tasks
-- examples being browsing the web, reading email and Usenet, doing
word processing, Linux-based systems do the job perfectly well,

But they lack the market share

So does Ferarri.

ronh

--
"People do not make decisions on facts, rather,
how they feel about the facts" Robert Consedine

"BackToNormal" wrote in message
. nz...
Keith Willshaw wrote:

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..

I contend that for many tasks
-- examples being browsing the web, reading email and Usenet, doing
word processing, Linux-based systems do the job perfectly well,

But they lack the market share

So does Ferarri.


Actually Ferrari has a good share of the luxury sports car
market.

Keith

phil hunt wrote:

Have most end users even used Linux? I contend that for many tasks
-- examples being browsing the web, reading email and Usenet, doing
word processing, Linux-based systems do the job perfectly well,
without the issues of cost, insecurity and vendor lock-in associated
with Microsoft.

Linux is a great OS. I really prefer Unix (Solaris/Linux) to a Windows
platform.

But I think a lot of the caution amongst business in using Linux is the
view of it being "hacker software" with no one "in charge". Business
needs someone always available to help solve OS problems and the view
is that isn't there with Linux. Asking a newsgroup isn't the same as
having MS available a telephone call away. Not certain what Linux
tech support actually is though.

MS is trashed by many a programmer, but I think they do make reasonably
good products (although their concepts of system security seem almost
a non-concern at times). It's plenty good enough for most users.

Attribute it to my increasing anti-European attitudes, but I think the
Euro move away from MS is primarily intended to undercut US economic
power. It's one of the "quiet agenda items" on the EU plate IMHO,
although God knows MS's licensing and ownership demands can be infuriating!


SMH