Bomber-jacket leather and our law

On 20 Sep 2003 02:13:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Officers do not put their hands in their pockets

Not even pilots? Crikey, I have this image of the cap mashed down, the
Lucky Strike dangling, the elbows sticking out, and the
hands-a-pocket.

Perhaps not fighter pilots! They need their hands to talk, don't they?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

On 19 Sep 2003 08:11:15 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

and AN-J-4 in '42. Whether or not any of the AAC guys brought along
B-3s, I don't know. I've never seen a photo of anyone wearing one.

Nevertheless, of 99 AVG pilots, maybe 40 were from the Army Air Corps,
and almost all of them brought their flight jackets with them.

Have you got a copy of R T Smith's Tale of a Tiger? Duke Hedman I
believe was an army pilot; he's shown wearing a flight jacket on p.
166.

Jim Cross p. 131

Oley Olson is wearing a shearling jacket p. 180. But he was a squadron
leader and would have qualified for a new jacket! Evidently a bunch of
jackets came in, because there's a portrait of the 3rd Sq ground crew
on p. 178 and most of the men are wearing those shearling-line
jackets. They aren't shown in any of the early photographs.

Here's an interesting one: p. 339. Standing on left is Erik Shilling,
late of this newsgroup, wearing a jacket that is distinctly different
from the others. Perhaps it is brown? It appears to have no fuzzy
collar. Standing beside him is Oley Olson (who may just possibly have
his hands in his pants pocket, Art wearing a black? jacket with a
moulton? collar, which is what most of the others are wearing. Olson
and Shilling are both army pilots. Seated left to right are R T Smith,
army, same jacket as Olson; Jernstedt, marines, a cloth jacket?; then
Prescott, Laughlin, and Reed, all wearing the Olson-type jacket.

Anyone got this book & care to comment?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Aerophotos wrote in message ...
sound like US Navy G- jackets

how ironic

flying over arab land wearing arab clothing

oh the irony

probly made by terrorists to



If you had read the previous message better, you'd have seen it said
that this particular jacket would *not* be made in the U.S.

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message . ..
On 19 Sep 2003 06:30:55 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message ...
On 18 Sep 2003 06:06:13 -0700, (Michael) wrote:



Looking at their website, I wouldn't buy anything from Airborne
Leather.

Why not, because they're a small store-front business?

No. I've got a narrow definition of what an A-2 (and G-1) is, and
their product doesn't meet that. It's a poor representation of the
A-2, at best.

~Michael

Well, I have a mid 1970s issue G-1 and the Chinese copy. I'll be damned
if I can tell the difference without knowing which is which until I closely
inspect the jacket and find that the Chinese jacket has slash pockets
concealed at the seam, a feature I wish the MIL spec jacket had.

By Chinese copy, you mean one from Airborne Leather, right? If so,
anyone should be able to tell at a glance that it's not a mil-spec
jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.

I guess that I'm not such a snob that I'll turn my nose at a perfectly
adequate garment that has the look of the original without the outrageous
expense of the high end stuff worn many wannabe geeks (no inference intended).

Yes, the inference was intended bub, and you're alluding that I'm a
snob because I prefer a jacket that actually tries to copy the real
thing from 60 years ago instead of a half assed knock off made with
second rate materials. Your jacket may be adequate in your book, but
not in mine, and we'll leave it at the that before this turns into
further name name calling.

~Michael

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
On 20 Sep 2003 02:13:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Officers do not put their hands in their pockets

Not even pilots? Crikey, I have this image of the cap mashed down, the
Lucky Strike dangling, the elbows sticking out, and the
hands-a-pocket.

None of the AAC/AAF flight jackets had hand warmer pockets until the
B-15 at the end of the war. And from what I've heard and read it was
because of the reason Art listed. The powers that be didn't want their
men standing around with their hands in their pockets. Looked sloppy
(and you were ill prepared to salute). Plus if you think about it,
they didn't need them. They need patch pockets to carry stuff (like
cigarettes, lighters, and other survival gear , and if it was cold
out or they were in the air, they'd have on gloves.

~Michael

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
On 19 Sep 2003 08:11:15 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

and AN-J-4 in '42. Whether or not any of the AAC guys brought along
B-3s, I don't know. I've never seen a photo of anyone wearing one.

Nevertheless, of 99 AVG pilots, maybe 40 were from the Army Air Corps,
and almost all of them brought their flight jackets with them.

I don't know. I've got a buddy who's way more into the AVG than me,
and a couple years ago when he went through all the photos he had. He
found 13 or 14 AVG pilots wearing A-2s (and maybe a dozen more ground
crew and staff).

Have you got a copy of R T Smith's Tale of a Tiger? Duke Hedman I
believe was an army pilot; he's shown wearing a flight jacket on p.
166.

Jim Cross p. 131

Oley Olson is wearing a shearling jacket p. 180. But he was a squadron
leader and would have qualified for a new jacket! Evidently a bunch of
jackets came in, because there's a portrait of the 3rd Sq ground crew
on p. 178 and most of the men are wearing those shearling-line
jackets. They aren't shown in any of the early photographs.

Simple way to identify if it's an USN M-445 or AAC B-3.... The B-3
will have leather reinforcing most of the way down the sleeves, the
M-445 will have diamond shaped reinforcing just at the elbow. The
M-445 will have two button patch pockets on the front, the B-3 will
have one open slash pocket/pouch on the front right. A friend of mine
says he's seen photos of two AVG guys wearing B-3s so some did make it
there.

Here's an interesting one: p. 339. Standing on left is Erik Shilling,
late of this newsgroup, wearing a jacket that is distinctly different
from the others. Perhaps it is brown? It appears to have no fuzzy
collar. Standing beside him is Oley Olson (who may just possibly have
his hands in his pants pocket, Art wearing a black? jacket with a
moulton? collar, which is what most of the others are wearing. Olson
and Shilling are both army pilots. Seated left to right are R T Smith,
army, same jacket as Olson; Jernstedt, marines, a cloth jacket?; then
Prescott, Laughlin, and Reed, all wearing the Olson-type jacket.

Anyone got this book & care to comment?

I don't have the book you mention, but I'm familiar with photo you are
refrencing. Shilling has on an A-2 (that is a much lighter brown than
the other jackets), and all the rest of the guys with leather jackets
on are wearing M-422s (they have the fur collar and are so dark of
brown they look black in color photos). Look through your photos,
you'll find the vast majority of AVG pilots (regardless of previous
service) wearing the fur collared USN M-422, though the AAC A-2 was
around. R.T. Smith appears in many photos wearing his M-422.

~Michael

On 20 Sep 2003 07:31:34 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

By Chinese copy, you mean one from Airborne Leather, right? If so,
anyone should be able to tell at a glance that it's not a mil-spec
jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.

Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.

I guess that I'm not such a snob that I'll turn my nose at a perfectly
adequate garment that has the look of the original without the outrageous
expense of the high end stuff worn many wannabe geeks (no inference intended).

Yes, the inference was intended bub, and you're alluding that I'm a
snob because I prefer a jacket that actually tries to copy the real
thing from 60 years ago instead of a half assed knock off made with
second rate materials. Your jacket may be adequate in your book, but
not in mine, and we'll leave it at the that before this turns into
further name name calling.

~Michael

LOLOLOL

Michael, if I intended to begin name calling, you would know it, believe me.

I was referring to the guys who show up at air shows driving a leased Porsche in

$1,000 leather jackets with patches indicating some former affiliation with a
active duty flying unit. I actually saw some geek with two GTMO patches on
his goatskin G-1. When I asked about his tour there he began a remarkably lame
bull**** story about how dangerous it was down there, blah, blah, blah. It was
obvious to me that he got all of his information from watching a "Few Good Men",
'cause he lacked clue one of reality (I did two tours in GTMO flying SAR). When
taken to task for being a second rate impostor, he was highly indignant, and
refused to apologize for being a liar. That's the type of wannabe I was
referring to, those guys who find the risk associated with day-trading to be
enough for their delicate constitutions.

By the way Michael, what do you drive? LOLOLOL!!! Just teasing!

Seriously, If I want exacting authenticity, I wear my issue G-1 (just replaced
the worn-out sleeve cuffs) with my units patches and velcro name tag.

Now if you prefer the expensive copies, fine, it's your party. However,
be advised that absolutely no one will give a damn how accurate it is.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.

Isn't shearling by definition lambskin? By the spring of 1942, the
majority of AVGs were wearing shearling jackets, as in the 3rd Sq
ground crew photo I mentioned.

Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.

Sounds good to me.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.

Isn't shearling by definition lambskin? By the spring of 1942, the
majority of AVGs were wearing shearling jackets, as in the 3rd Sq
ground crew photo I mentioned.

Yes, shearling is sheep or lambskin, and the B-3, B-6, D-1, M-444 and
M-445 were made out of sheepskin. The A-2 and M422/G-1 were not. The
A-2 was horse, goat or cow and the M-422 was goat.

~Michael

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message .. .
On 20 Sep 2003 07:31:34 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

By Chinese copy, you mean one from Airborne Leather, right? If so,
anyone should be able to tell at a glance that it's not a mil-spec
jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.

Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.

Well, according to their website, their standard A-2 and G-1 are made
out of "nappa leather" meaning sheep or lambskin meant for use in
glove making. Did you request jackets made out of cow?

Michael, if I intended to begin name calling, you would know it, believe me.

I was referring to the guys who show up at air shows driving a leased Porsche in

$1,000 leather jackets with patches indicating some former affiliation with a
active duty flying unit. I actually saw some geek with two GTMO patches on
his goatskin G-1. When I asked about his tour there he began a remarkably lame
bull**** story about how dangerous it was down there, blah, blah, blah. It was
obvious to me that he got all of his information from watching a "Few Good Men",
'cause he lacked clue one of reality (I did two tours in GTMO flying SAR). When
taken to task for being a second rate impostor, he was highly indignant, and
refused to apologize for being a liar. That's the type of wannabe I was
referring to, those guys who find the risk associated with day-trading to be
enough for their delicate constitutions.

By the way Michael, what do you drive? LOLOLOL!!! Just teasing!

A Pontiac Grand Prix, so no, no Porsche. Though I do I have some
$1000 jackets. Sorry.

Seriously, If I want exacting authenticity, I wear my issue G-1 (just replaced
the worn-out sleeve cuffs) with my units patches and velcro name tag.

Now if you prefer the expensive copies, fine, it's your party. However,
be advised that absolutely no one will give a damn how accurate it is.

I'd don't expect them to know or care how accurate it is. It's only
important to me.

~Michael