How to promote this thing we do (long post)

Later, I've got to take someone to the airport.

Jim

WOW! Jim, I couldn't have said it better (and I didn't, because I couldn't
put it into words). This is exactly the type of mentality that I would hope
many of us would have. Growing up in the 70's, my dad used to take me to
the airport with him. There was always folks kicking tires and telling lies
up and down hangar row. Now days, at the same airport, you're lucky to find
someone just "hanging out". Most of the flyers are corporate or utility
pilots that aren't real interested in the love of flight....it's just their
job.

My brothers-in-law both have Harley's. For the money that just one of them
have put in their bike, I could have bought a 150. Put their money together
and we can have a Warrior or 172. And other than hangar rent, I'd bet money
that they spend more on their bike than I do on my 172 per year (gas not
included ). The point is, you're absolutely right. we have to build the
community and culture back. I have been into areas and airports where this
exists, but not often.

I grew up around aviation. I've always had a way to get my flying "fix". In
fact, I'm 37 and still working on my PPL. I learned to "fly" at an early
age, but never did it right or on my own until I had "time" and "money".
But, I have spent 25+ years around this same social group your talking
about. I guess part of the reason I didn't get too bothered about not
finishing my certificate was that I enjoyed the gatherings as much as I did
the flying. So, point well taken.

Now, how do we get this same attitude out to the masses? I've thought of
forming my own EAA chapter just to get the 5-10 folks that I know locally
re-involved. That's a start, but it's gonna take much more than just us.

jf

Andrew Gideon wrote in
news
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:03:18 +0000, Judah wrote:

[...]


I believe the FBOs want students more then renters.

You raise some excellent points about which I'd forgotten. Every FBO
from which I rented had some type of "daily minimum" for this reason.

Neither FBO on my field had a daily minimum as recently as 2001. One of
them subbed out their flight school/rental operation to American Flyers in
2001 (just before 9/11) and stopped renting planes altogether. The other
one continued without daily minimums (on Millenium SPs no less!) through at
least 2003 or 2004. I remember shortly after joining the flight club I
belong to that I got a letter from the FBO introducing the daily minimums
and indicating they would now be enforced. Even with minimums, I tend to
believe that student flights are the top revenue source for airplane rental
for FBOs... I don't believe it's anywhere near the highest revenue item on
their Income Statement, as compared with Tiedown/Hangar rentals, Fuel, and
service.

The big difference, I'd guess, is that the long trip included a lot of
weekdays during which there's less student activity.

Most of my travels are during the week as well, and it may have been why I
got some leeway with the FBO even for overnight and two night trips. But
anything longer, even during the week, drew quite a bit of attention. And I
don't remember ever taking a plane over a weekend night.

Do most graduating student pilots go on to fly professionally like that?
In my "aviation social circle", we're all GA-ers. But that's the result
of the selection process; I've no idea what people pass through training
and then "move on".

I'm not certain. My guess is that most of the young student pilots that
fall into the under-30 category are working their way toward a career as a
pilot, and most of the over-30's are not. I also suspect that most under-
30s are getting their primary training at Aeronautical Colleges and
organized, accellerated programs (like American Flyers, perhaps) and not at
the local FBO. My guess is that of the ones that go to College for it, a
relatively high percentage go all the way to at least the regional jet
level, and of the ones that start at a local Part 61 FBO, a much smaller
percentage go all the way.

But that's my perception and opinion, based on observations that mostly
include bigger cities like HPN where I am based.

available (although not always a Bo). Summer weekends are a little bit
busy, but the club has instituted rules to prevent abuse and help
ensure availability.

I'm curious, what rules?

Basically, any one member can only make 4 total weekend reservations
significantly in advance during the summer. From Wednesday at noon on you
can make a reservation for the following weekend and it does not count
toward the advance reservation restriction. It seems to work, but I could
be wrong because I don't really rent much on the weekends. On the few
occassions when I have rented on the weekend, I was pretty much able to
make the reservation the day before or the same day. I didn't always get
the plane I wanted, but I didn't get totally blocked out either.

On the other hand, though, there are 45 (or whatever size club you have)
to satisfy when making decisions in a club. If most are VFRers, for
example, will they all want to spend money for backup vacuum and WAAS?
Most of the people that graduate to their own planes do so for "more
plane" (in one way or another) than the club has (ie. one fellow left
for a twin, another left for a brand new SR-22, etc.).

Certainly there are still some people out there with "unlimited" budgets
for buying a new SR-22. But what's another couple-of-hundred a month to
continue to have a backup plan?

Our club has 8 planes (2 Archers, 3 Arrows, and 3 Bonanzas) and is
chartered for 80 people. We actually only have about 70 members right now,
in some sense because of exactly what you described above. When I joined
the club a few years ago it was smaller (60 members, 6 planes, IIRC) and
had 2 of each type of plane. In the last few years, our club has certainly
faced some challenges, especially with respect to the growth, and to the
differing opinions of priorities. In the end, though, things have worked
out.

Anyway, I think to answer Jeff's original question - clubs are the way
to go to keep this industry alive.

That's a very interesting point (and one which naturally appeals to me
{8^).

[...]

The only other way to save this industry (and maybe this country) is to
kill all the lawyers and insurance companies.

Don't forget the FAA mouthpieces for the airline industry trying to push
for a tax break for them funded by GA fees.

Aren't they lawyers? Or just Lobbyists?

"Not anyone can become a Lobbyist. You have to have a
moral flexibility that goes beyond most people."
- Nick Naylor

I read in some magazine a funny aside: from where are all those VLJs
going to come given the shrinking pilot population?

More importantly, who's going to train the pilots?

I see a lot of good ideas in this thread about promoting aviation from
within. The problem is, our numbers are so few that it would be tough to
even make a dent unless the majority of current pilots brought in at
least one new pilot.

One thing that's really stood out to me, is that FBO's make very little
effort to promote themselves. The FBO where I earned my PPL is
professionally managed and very friendly, but I never knew they existed
until I got serious about learning.

Who knows how many are out there dreaming about flying and just need a
little nudge to take that next step.

I realize in aviation, there probably isn't a lot of room in the budget
for advertising. But I'd really like to see what happens if an FBO (or
group of FBOs) got serious about promoting their business.

In a decent sized town (100-300K), I don't see why an FBO couldn't bring
100 or so qualified new students per year. It it may end up costing $500
to acquire each new student, but even if with a high dropout rate, I
would guess the remaining new customers would be well worth the effort.

- bill


In article ,
"Jeff" jfranks1971 minus wrote:

I'm a 10 year lurker in this newsgroup and, like most, time gets in the way
of my flying and/or posting here. But after a week at OSH (missed the party
AGAIN, but this time, I didn't wander around not finding it ) and a newly
re-instated medical, I've been invigorated and am ready again to do this
thing we love.

...But I'm concerned. As many have pointed out, the number of pilots in our
country is falling rapidly. My father and I flew into a monthly breakfast
at a nearby airport about a month ago. At 37 years old, I was one of the
youngest 10% of attendees. Most of the people there were 50-65 and the
remainder even older.

As I wandered around OSH, I made an effort to try to average out the ages of
most of the people there. You had your kids and early teenagers that came
with Mom and Dad and occasionally a 20 yr old. But then there seemed to be
a gap and again, the 35-40 yr olds started the pack again and it went up
from there.

Now, being 37, I know exactly why this is the case. I had the same problems.
Family, career, kids, etc all get "in the way" and flying doesn't make it in
the top ten list of things to spend a limited budget on. But I think what
we're starting to see happening is that flying isn't making it BACK into the
budget once money and time become more available. Things like Harley
Davidson motorcycles, RV's, etc all seem more plausible to the masses than
flying....because we all know flying is a rich man's hobby...right? (said in
jest...sorta).

So, why am I rambling on about the obvious? Here's why. I think groups
like EAA and AOPA need to come back to reality. The Poberezny's and Phil
Boyer have been rubbing elbows with the celebrities and the ultra rich (e.g
Warbird owners) so long, they've forgotten that I had to borrow money to buy
a $29k C172 and get bitched at everytime I have to pay for an annual.

I saved up my sweepstakes tickets from Sport Pilot and entered 30 of them
for the pretty new $190,000 Husky that the EAA was giving away. But, had I
won it, I would have had to sell it to pay the $50k+ tax bill. Now, I would
loved to have won and sold it to buy something I could afford, but the point
is, they are trying to get "the average man" back into flying. Call me
crazy, but the "average man" doesn't spend $190k on an airplane.

I have probably 15 friends around my age that have told me that they "have
always wanted to fly, but just haven't because XXXX" XXXX might be money,
time, fear, whatever. But money is usually the culprit. And most of them
have no real idea what it would cost. They just write it off as something
they can't afford.

Again, what is my point? I dunno. I guess, I'm asking how do we do this?
How do we get the 40 year old's who always wanted to fly, but just never had
time, money or gumption? We tend to really push hard on the young. We have
great programs like Young Eagles to encourage kids to get into aviation, but
now 15 years after that program was started, how many PPL's has it
generated? I'm not suggesting we stop YE, but I am trying to figure out if
that is enough. Obviously, it's not. Would it be possible to have EAA/AOPA
to give away "scholarships" to adults to get their license? If you granted
them $10k each, the EAA could have given away 19 PPL Scholarships for the
money the Husky cost. I know that a $5k donation to my license fund would
have made me get in the air 10 years ago. I would think you could get
vendors and aviation suppliers to donate to the cause just like they do to
the giveaway aircraft. More pilots = More business.

I'm just trying to start a conversation here. I'm excited personally about
my re-instated medical and getting back in the air, but at the same time,
I'm concerned that status quo isn't gonna cut it anymore.

Thoughts?

Jeff Franks
Summertown, TN

I believe LSA is the way to go, but that does not necessarily mean
operating under the sport pilot rules. This could be the single most
important factor for rescuing GA from dying. Anyone can fly the LSA,
even under IFR, and is a much more economical option than the normal
category airplanes. Our club recently got rid of the 172 and bought a
brand new LSA, with a fully loaded panel, and the response has been
very positive. The airplane is being flown significantly more than the
other airplanes. The hourly cost is $50/hr tach which is almost half
that of the 172. For two people flying, you can't beat the price to
performance ratio. With more LSA coming into the scene, I see a bright
future ahead.




On Jul 31, 8:53 am, Jay Honeck wrote:
I'm just trying to start a conversation here. I'm excited personally about
my re-instated medical and getting back in the air, but at the same time,
I'm concerned that status quo isn't gonna cut it anymore.

Great post, Jeff. You're on the right track.

Kyle's point about flight training is also critical. We've got the
same situation in Iowa City, saddled with an FBO that sees flight
training as a "loser" and has raised rates accordingly. The result is
precisely what they desired: Less flight training.

This short-term thinking is going to have very bad results in the near
future. When asked about using LSAs for training, to keep costs down,
their answer was blunt and to the point: We don't do that.

My advice? Mentor your friends. I've personally mentored two people
from zero to Private, and am working on the third -- my son. IMHO if
we don't individually take responsibility for this situation -- each
of us, right now -- GA is going to die right before our eyes.

Congrats on being back in the sky -- and hope to see you at NEXT
year's HOPS party!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:08:50 +0000, Judah wrote:


Neither FBO on my field had a daily minimum as recently as 2001.

Wow.

One of
them subbed out their flight school/rental operation to American Flyers in
2001 (just before 9/11) and stopped renting planes altogether.

This certainly backs up your idea that training and rental aren't much as
compared to the services provided to other aircraft.

[...]

Do most graduating student pilots go on to fly professionally like that?

[...]
My guess is that of the ones that go to College for it,
a relatively high percentage go all the way to at least the regional jet
level, and of the ones that start at a local Part 61 FBO, a much smaller
percentage go all the way.

That's my guess too. So the FBOs aren't [mostly] training people that are
going to go on to aviation careers. Thus, at least in the aggregate (over
all FBOs), they are training the "next generation" of GA-ers.

And that makes them "important" in the task of raising more GA pilots.

[...]

I'm curious, what rules?

[...]

We've a very different mechanism which may work out about the same. It's
a point-based system. A long booking "costs" 2 points; a short "costs" 1.
Bookings "today" are free, and when a booking rolls around to "today" the
points it cost return to the pilot.

So we can have on the schedule at any moment two long bookings, four
short, or one long and two short.

The "free today" rule means that even someone maxed out can "grab an
available plane and fly".

Like you, I've had little difficulty grabbing a plane for when I wanted
it. More, I've had a two-point booking (a vacation {8^) on the system for
a while, and I've not felt constrained by the fact that I'm running at
only two available points.

Also, frankly, everyone is pretty good about it. I'd a booking that was
immediately followed by someone else's once. I found I wanted to stay
away longer, and a quick call to the other member made it possible.

[...]

Certainly there are still some people out there with "unlimited" budgets
for buying a new SR-22. But what's another couple-of-hundred a month to
continue to have a backup plan?

Heh Good point. I'll have to remember that if I ever come across my own
unlimited budget grin.

In fact, now that I consider it, we've had and have members that owned
their own aircraft as well. Hmm.


Our club has 8 planes (2 Archers, 3 Arrows, and 3 Bonanzas) and is
chartered for 80 people. We actually only have about 70 members right
now, in some sense because of exactly what you described above. When I
joined the club a few years ago it was smaller (60 members, 6 planes,
IIRC) and had 2 of each type of plane. In the last few years, our club
has certainly faced some challenges, especially with respect to the
growth, and to the differing opinions of priorities. In the end, though,
things have worked out.

I just recognized you: WFC-HPN.ORG? You're one of the few clubs in the
"neighborhood" with six-seaters. I've noticed that; we have only
four-seaters.

I've also long admired what little I can see about your finances, in that
you seem to keep your aircraft very well equiped for a rather low price.

[...]

The only other way to save this industry (and maybe this country) is
to kill all the lawyers and insurance companies.

Don't forget the FAA mouthpieces for the airline industry trying to
push for a tax break for them funded by GA fees.

Aren't they lawyers? Or just Lobbyists?

I don't know. Some run the FAA, but it doesn't preclude membership in
either/both of those two sets.

[...]

I read in some magazine a funny aside: from where are all those VLJs
going to come given the shrinking pilot population?

More importantly, who's going to train the pilots?

Yet everyone (certainly the VLJ-manufacturers) are expecting the boom.

Perhaps this isn't going to end up being related to GA ("small GA") but
instead airlines. That is, perhaps VLJs will take clients and pilots away
from the airlines (ie. the "air taxi" model)?

But the number of pilots would still need to increase significantly. Yet,
if these are "career" pilots then they'll come though the universities and
rush programs.

- Andrew

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:46:06 -0400, Kyle Boatright wrote:

Again, it is a short vs long term thing. Too many FBO's are taking a
short term approach and effectively killing the industry's future.

It's a variation of the prisoners' dilemma or a tragedy of the commons, I
think: they expect the other FBOs to "raise" the new pilots.

- Andrew

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
ups.com...

I believe LSA is the way to go, but that does not necessarily mean
operating under the sport pilot rules. This could be the single most
important factor for rescuing GA from dying. Anyone can fly the LSA,
even under IFR, and is a much more economical option than the normal
category airplanes. Our club recently got rid of the 172 and bought a
brand new LSA, with a fully loaded panel, and the response has been
very positive. The airplane is being flown significantly more than the
other airplanes. The hourly cost is $50/hr tach which is almost half
that of the 172. For two people flying, you can't beat the price to
performance ratio. With more LSA coming into the scene, I see a bright
future ahead.



I agree that LSA is the best hope we have, but I worry about how much hope
there is with it. When the idea of the LSA came out a few years back, I was
pumped. I thought *THIS* will save GA, but browsing OSH this year and
noticing that the average LSA pricetag is $100k+ for an entry model, again
puts ownership out of the reach of most people. Now in 10 years, those same
LSA's will be used airplanes that someone might be able to buy for $35k (in
today's money), but that's 10 years down the road.

What is sad (and I'm preaching to the choir here), is that I know a guy who
was an air traffic controller in 1974 and bought a brand new 182 loaded for
$28k. At the time, he was a GS13 making $23k. Traslate that into today's
prices and salaries, an ATC at that level now makes $100kish, so the same
182 *should* run in the $130-$150k range. 150's should be sold for the
$40-$50k. I guess looking back doesn't help, but it now makes sense as to
why there are less pilots than there used to be. We're squeezing out the
average guy.

"RVlust" wrote in message
...
I see a lot of good ideas in this thread about promoting aviation from
within. The problem is, our numbers are so few that it would be tough to
even make a dent unless the majority of current pilots brought in at
least one new pilot.

One thing that's really stood out to me, is that FBO's make very little
effort to promote themselves. The FBO where I earned my PPL is
professionally managed and very friendly, but I never knew they existed
until I got serious about learning.

Who knows how many are out there dreaming about flying and just need a
little nudge to take that next step.

I realize in aviation, there probably isn't a lot of room in the budget
for advertising. But I'd really like to see what happens if an FBO (or
group of FBOs) got serious about promoting their business.

In a decent sized town (100-300K), I don't see why an FBO couldn't bring
100 or so qualified new students per year. It it may end up costing $500
to acquire each new student, but even if with a high dropout rate, I
would guess the remaining new customers would be well worth the effort.

- bill



The Be A Pilot program hits all around this area, but like you are saying,
it's not getting out to the masses. I know several people who have an
interest in flying, but have never seen anything like the Be A Pilot
program.

another good thing I've used in the past to encourage new flyers is getting
the to sign up for the 6 month free subscription to AOPA's Flight Training
magazine. In my opinion, that is one of the best aviation mags out there,
even if you have 10000 hours logged...

jf

"Jeff" jfranks1971 minus wrote in message
...
Later, I've got to take someone to the airport.

Jim

WOW! Jim, I couldn't have said it better (and I didn't, because I couldn't
put it into words). This is exactly the type of mentality that I would
hope many of us would have. Growing up in the 70's, my dad used to take
me to the airport with him. There was always folks kicking tires and
telling lies up and down hangar row. Now days, at the same airport,
you're lucky to find someone just "hanging out". Most of the flyers are
corporate or utility pilots that aren't real interested in the love of
flight....it's just their job.

My brothers-in-law both have Harley's. For the money that just one of
them have put in their bike, I could have bought a 150. Put their money
together and we can have a Warrior or 172. And other than hangar rent,
I'd bet money that they spend more on their bike than I do on my 172 per
year (gas not included ). The point is, you're absolutely right. we
have to build the community and culture back. I have been into areas and
airports where this exists, but not often.

I grew up around aviation. I've always had a way to get my flying "fix".
In fact, I'm 37 and still working on my PPL. I learned to "fly" at an
early age, but never did it right or on my own until I had "time" and
"money". But, I have spent 25+ years around this same social group your
talking about. I guess part of the reason I didn't get too bothered about
not finishing my certificate was that I enjoyed the gatherings as much as
I did the flying. So, point well taken.

Now, how do we get this same attitude out to the masses? I've thought of
forming my own EAA chapter just to get the 5-10 folks that I know locally
re-involved. That's a start, but it's gonna take much more than just us.



Are the AOPA and EAA not getting along? I was planning on joining AOPA at
Arlington, but didn't see an AOPA booth. I'm sure they have been there in
the past, unless I just missed them this year, for them not to be there
verges on the criminal. The EAA is supposed to be announcing "some major
efforts" to recruit pilots. I have a suggestion, once this user-fee thing
is killed, the group they have formed to fight it, the AAAA, should be used
as the vehicle to promote aviation.

Ken Finney wrote:
SNIP
Now, how do we get this same attitude out to the masses? I've
thought of forming my own EAA chapter just to get the 5-10 folks
that I know locally re-involved. That's a start, but it's gonna
take much more than just us.

Are the AOPA and EAA not getting along? I was planning on joining
AOPA at Arlington, but didn't see an AOPA booth. I'm sure they have
been there in the past, unless I just missed them this year, for them
not to be there verges on the criminal. The EAA is supposed to be
announcing "some major efforts" to recruit pilots. I have a
suggestion, once this user-fee thing is killed, the group they have
formed to fight it, the AAAA, should be used as the vehicle to
promote aviation.


Have I missed something? What's the AAAA?

Also, as some of you might remember I floated the idea in this newsgroup of
the AOPA working with FBOs to work with students that for what ever reason
don't finish training. It was suggested that I send the idea to AOPA. I did
via e-mail and haven't heard back from them.