P-51's, Aces: A Special Gathering

On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.

However did they lose the war?

It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.

Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?

So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?

The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.

**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.

Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.

Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...

Ponder that Tommy-boy.

Rob

On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.

However did they lose the war?

It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.

Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?

So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?

The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.

**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.

Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.

Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...

Ponder that Tommy-boy.

Rob

And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.

On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:





On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.

However did they lose the war?

It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.

Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?

So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?

The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.

**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.

Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.

Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...

Ponder that Tommy-boy.

Rob

And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob

In rec.aviation.soaring Rob Arndt wrote:
Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Slightly counterintuitive but it is difficult for an individual pilot to
score a large number of kills when his side outproduces the other side
several times over and has overwhelming air superiority.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Bob

Since you know it all and put in Caps like a kid in kindergarten, how
many Germans made Ace against the P-51????

Big John
**********************************************

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:14:23 -0700, Rob Arndt
wrote:

On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:





On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.

However did they lose the war?

It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.

Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?

So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?

The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.

**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.

Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.

Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...

Ponder that Tommy-boy.

Rob

And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob

Can y'all move this discussion elsewhere? It's starting to get annoying...

Big John wrote:
Bob

Since you know it all and put in Caps like a kid in kindergarten, how
many Germans made Ace against the P-51????

Big John
**********************************************

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:14:23 -0700, Rob Arndt
wrote:

On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:





On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.
However did they lose the war?
It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.
Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?
So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?
The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.
**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.
Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.
Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...
Ponder that Tommy-boy.
Rob
And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!
40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob

Marc

Your right. Bob has to be a troll and should be plonked. Why he posted
to Soaring I have no idea

It's hard to convince an idiot so I'm gone.

(P-40, P-51, P-80A & B with small engine like Bong was flying but
better bird than me-262)

Big John
************************************************** **

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:33:40 -0700, Marc Ramsey
wrote:

Can y'all move this discussion elsewhere? It's starting to get annoying...

Big John wrote:
Bob

Since you know it all and put in Caps like a kid in kindergarten, how
many Germans made Ace against the P-51????

Big John
**********************************************

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:14:23 -0700, Rob Arndt
wrote:

On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:





On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.
However did they lose the war?
It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.
Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?
So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?
The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.
**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.
Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.
Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...
Ponder that Tommy-boy.
Rob
And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!
40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob

Big John wrote:

Marc

Your right. Bob has to be a troll and should be plonked. Why he posted
to Soaring I have no idea

It's hard to convince an idiot so I'm gone.

(P-40, P-51, P-80A & B with small engine like Bong was flying but
better bird than me-262)


Right on, Big John!

As far as "Bob" is concerned, though, I regret--and apologize
for--cross-posting a forwarded message concerning the P-51's/Aces
get-together to both r.a.soaring and r.a.military. It seems, along with
the sports thread for which I am NOT responsible, to have degenerated
here on r.a.s. much more quickly than most. I did not allow for it
attracting the attention of Rob, who is notorious on r.a.m, and thus
causing cross-pollution of r.a.s.

On the other hand, soaring people are apparently way too highly evolved
intellectually for anything so mundane and simple-minded as either
professional sports or flying fighters. As always, those that can, do;
those that can't, bitch about those who can. Why sure, Ted Williams and
Bob Feller were just good ol'boys who couldn't make it any other way.
And we wonder why the US doesn't breed many world champions these days.

In the future my expectations for the quality of r.a.s. dialog will be
more closely geared to the requirements of "those who can't," and to an
enhanced assessment of the limited potential of r.a.s. to deal in a
mature fashion with subjects indirectly related to the nominal News
Group topic.



Jack

On Aug 22, 1:14?am, Rob Arndt wrote:
Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

Ponder this--those men who meet in Columbus may hold their heads high,
knowing they fought and won a war to free the world from a murderous
system of enslavement, while your Experten know they fought for the
wrong cause and the world is glad that they lost--and that their
grandchildren are ashamed of them.

On Aug 22, 4:59?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 22, 1:14?am, Rob Arndt wrote:

Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

Ponder this--those men who meet in Columbus may hold their heads high,
knowing they fought and won a war to free the world from a murderous
system of enslavement, while your Experten know they fought for the
wrong cause and the world is glad that they lost--and that their
grandchildren are ashamed of them.

Number one they didn't win it alone in the world and certainly not
with the P-51 Mustang alone. They can believe whatever they want for
why they fought as Americans but it was about capitalism and big
business, as usual in the western world. What is true democracy linked
with? Freedom? Wrong- money, wealth, capitalism. the US fought b/c
whether Germany won or lost, the US had assets there and wanted to
keep doing business.

To their credit, however, I concede that the P-51 aces killed 2,097
German a/c and had 313 aces with 5 -23.83 kills.

I won't bring up the Me Bf 109s kills or aces made b/c I don't want
you to cry.

Rob

p.s. Germany survived, reunified, and lives to fight another day. So,
they spent 10 yrs in misery... in the long run they got off light.