Wagons used for towing in Europe

On Sep 4, 4:34 pm, Asbjorn Hojmark wrote:
On 4 Sep 2007 01:16:31 GMT, Ray Lovinggood

wrote:
P3 wrote, 'Anyone out there know if the 325xi wagon is available
in Diesel engine in EU Land?'

There is no such thing as a 325xi with diesel... since the "i"
signifies gasoline (originally injection). A 325 with 4-wheel drive
and diesel would then be 325xd, but there is no such thing either.

There *is* a 330xd (over here): 3 litre, 6 cylinder, 170 kW and 500
Nm. 0-100 in a lot less than 7 seconds. That's a very fine car, but
it's totally overkill for towing. A 320d would do very nicely.

-A
--http://www.hojmark.org/soaring.html

Thanks. Should've realized that the i's were all gas and the x's were
all wheel drive.

In case anyone's interested, here's what I got back by email after
requesting from BMW USA what they were planning for 2008:

"Dear Mr. Mann:

Thank you for contacting BMW of North America, LLC regarding diesel
models in the US market. We appreciate your interest and enthusiasm
for our vehicles. I am happy to confirm that yes, BMW NA plans to
offer diesel models in all 50 states beginning in 2008. At this time,
a model line up has not yet been released.

In 1998, we demonstrated the superiority of our diesel technology on
the racetrack by winning the 24-hours of Nürburgring in a race-tuned
320d Sedan. This grueling test of endurance not only proved the 320d's
ability to run longer between fuel stops, but on a larger scale,
demonstrated that performance and fuel efficiency are not mutually
exclusive.

Today, we offer a wide variety of diesel engines across our entire
model range in Europe. Taking home the prestigious Engine of the Year
Award several times, our diesel engines are renowned for their
unequaled harmony of dynamic performance, innovative technology,
surprisingly low fuel consumption, along with a smoothness that is
uncommon for a Diesel. The pinnacle of BMW diesel technology to date
is the 3.0-liter variable twin-turbo inline six-cylinder introduced
recently in the 335d and 535d. With 286-hp and 427 lb-ft of torque,
the 535d accelerates to 60 mph in less than 6.5 seconds, while
delivering an average of 37 mpg on the highway.

Clearly, this level of technology is predestined for the U.S. market -
not only in terms of power and efficiency, but for its potential to
help reduce greenhouse gas emissions. In fact, this enhanced concept
for minimum exhaust gas emissions has been developed to meet the
strict emissions standards in effect in California and other states.
With its carbon emissions down 10% - 20% from comparable gasoline
vehicles, and near-elimination of both smoke and NOx emissions, BMW
Advanced Diesels will be every bit as clean as CARB-legal gasoline
engines when they are introduced in the US in 2008.

As a means of producing so much power with a minimum of environmental
impact and a maximum of fuel efficiency, it is no surprise that BMW
will be among the first to introduce 50-state clean diesel technology.
After all, it often takes an independent company like ours to bring an
idea like this to the public. For the most up-to-date information, I
recommend regular visits to our dynamic website www.bmwusa.com; when
you visit, be sure to sign up for diesel e-mail updates.

If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail or
contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at
1-800-831-1117, Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M.,
Eastern Standard Time. Again, thank you for contacting BMW.

Sincerely,

Amber Wood"

recently in the 335d and 535d. With 286-hp and 427 lb-ft of torque,
the 535d accelerates to 60 mph in less than 6.5 seconds, while
delivering an average of 37 mpg on the highway.

This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider. For single seaters, 100hp is
plenty enough even in the mountains, which will give you 50mpg with
modern diesels when not towing. Double seaters may ask for a bit more,
but not much. BTW, I regularly tow single seaters with an Opel Astra 1.6
(gaz). Front drive, no 4x4. Plenty enough power, the speed is limited
not by power, but by the stability, he upper safe limit being somewhere
around 60mph. But does this really matter, and btw, in most places the
allowed speed isn't higher anyway.

Clearly, this level of technology is predestined for the U.S. market -
not only in terms of power and efficiency, but for its potential to
help reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

If that was their intent, they wouldn't push engines with 286hp and
above. I'm afraid that they are correct, though, that this insanity is
predestined for the US market.

On Sep 5, 7:30 am, John Smith wrote:
This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider.

Eh? Who is suggesting that you do?


Dan

"Dan G" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 5, 7:30 am, John Smith wrote:
This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider.

Eh? Who is suggesting that you do?


Dan

Keep in mind that there is "data plate HP" and actual HP. Turbo diesels
tend to have high "critical altitudes" which is the highest altitude where
the engine will produce sea level power. On the other hand, normally
aspirated engines will only produce a fraction of the "brochure HP" at high
altitudes. To get adequate power at the top of mountain passes with a
normally aspirated engine, you must to buy more power than you need at sea
level.

Diesels have excellent economy at part throttle but only slightly better
economy than spark ignition engines at full throttle. This means that even
if you bought an engine with the capacity to produce 286 HP, the power that
you actually use is determined by power demand which is in turn mainly
determined by the overall weight of your rig and driving style. To increase
fuel economy, reduce weight and run at part throttle. All else equal,
buying a larger diesel engine has little to do with actual average fuel
economy.

Bill Daniels

Hi Bill
I do not know where you have that stuff from.
But for sure your statements will not stand closer investigations.

John Smith got it right:
I regularly tow single seaters with an Opel Astra 1.6 (gaz) -
front driven - NO 4x4. Plenty enough power, the speed is limited not by
power, but by the stability.

I towed my single seaters in Cobra trailers (~850kg) first with
a Fiat Uno (1.6liter, 4cyl, 70hp, low first gear and best torque
at 3000rpm) over many European mountain passes without any
problems. On a very hot summer day cooling the engine might
become an issue even with a electric fan, if you are stuck in traffic
jam behind a slow truck. But you still as a last resort can open
all windows and switch the aircon to full heat :-)

Your second "full throttle" theory also is weak. The economy
at higher speeds (60mph) in general depends on the highest
gearbox ratio and that is true for gas engines as well and aero-
dynamics. Don't buy a car which you have to rev up to 5000
rpm to reach 60mph! Make sure you can do it in the highest
gear at not much more than the best torque (~2000rpm for
diesels and =3500rpm for gaz).

My actual Peugeot 307 HDi Touring cruises 120km/h (75mph)
with a consumption of 6l/100km (39m/g) or 8l/100km with the
trailer hooked on (29m/g). The longer the wheel base, combined
with low CG and good suspension (NO spring leaves!) tows a
Cobra trailer at 75mph without stability problems.

Sports cars have best torque at higher rpm than economic cars.
When selecting a car in general for towing, get one with an engine
with long stroke and high torque at low rpm and get a sleek
design not a square SUV with lots of aerodynamic drag, and a
weight 1000kg above a normal station wagon. Towing with a high
CG and short wheel base (SUVs) is also no good for stable driving
behavior!

DON'T BELIEVE CAR DEALERS
they just want to make you believe that you need for towing
at least 6 cylinders, 3 liters, 200 HP and 4x4 drive
That's just plain rubbish
Think economically &
do not overkill
and keep your daily running costs down
to be able to spend more money on the real topic: SOARING.

But if you are a millionaire - then you do not have to care.

Chris
________________________________________________

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
...
Dan

Keep in mind that there is "data plate HP" and actual HP. Turbo diesels
tend to have high "critical altitudes" which is the highest altitude where
the engine will produce sea level power. On the other hand, normally
aspirated engines will only produce a fraction of the "brochure HP" at
high altitudes. To get adequate power at the top of mountain passes with
a normally aspirated engine, you must to buy more power than you need at
sea level.

Diesels have excellent economy at part throttle but only slightly better
economy than spark ignition engines at full throttle. This means that
even if you bought an engine with the capacity to produce 286 HP, the
power that you actually use is determined by power demand which is in turn
mainly determined by the overall weight of your rig and driving style. To
increase fuel economy, reduce weight and run at part throttle. All else
equal, buying a larger diesel engine has little to do with actual average
fuel economy.

Bill Daniels

On Sep 5, 7:38 am, Dan G wrote:
On Sep 5, 7:30 am, John Smith wrote:

This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider.

Eh? Who is suggesting that you do?

Dan

No, not to tow a glider. But, if you've ever tried to merge into
traffic on route 78 eastbound with a 20 ton dumptruck bearing down on
you at 65mph, you'll understand why there are times when a little
extra power might be nice to have :-)

P3

NO
you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
(2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
making your ears deaf.
Chris
__________________________________________________ _____

"Papa3" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 5, 7:38 am, Dan G wrote:

No, not to tow a glider. But, if you've ever tried to merge into
traffic on route 78 eastbound with a 20 ton dumptruck bearing down on
you at 65mph, you'll understand why there are times when a little
extra power might be nice to have :-)

P3

On Sep 5, 7:16 pm, "BlueCumulus" wrote:
NO
you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
(2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
making your ears deaf.
Chris
__________________________________________________ _____

"Papa3" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Sep 5, 7:38 am, Dan G wrote:

No, not to tow a glider. But, if you've ever tried to merge into
traffic on route 78 eastbound with a 20 ton dumptruck bearing down on
you at 65mph, you'll understand why there are times when a little
extra power might be nice to have :-)

P3- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chris,

Go back and read the post again, would you? The argument wasn't
between gas and diesel. I'm sold on diesel - have been for 20 years.
The comment was that there are some times you want a 286hp diesel
(also note the smiley face).

But, since you bring it up:

- Specs on the Peugot HDi give something like 140hp and 10 seconds
0-60 (and that's the larger HDi)
- Specs on an older BMW 320d give something like 165hp and 7.8
seconds 0-60 (the new 320d is about 6.0 seconds)

My point ws that sometimes 2 seconds means a lot (like when a 20 ton
truck is bearing down on you eating up about 100 feet of pavement
every second).

Now I know why the Diana2 guys were losing it !

P3

BlueCumulus wrote:
NO
you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
(2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
making your ears deaf.
Chris

I can't let this one go: Papa3's comment was about merging onto a
highway, not about moving away from a complete stop. Once you are going
fast enough to be past the torque peak in first gear, it's *power* that
accelerates a vehicle, or moves it up a hill. The torque required is
produced by selecting the right gear in the transmission, so the engine
torque is not relevant.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Sep 7, 9:15 am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BlueCumulus wrote:
NO
you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
(2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
making your ears deaf.
Chris

I can't let this one go: Papa3's comment was about merging onto a
highway, not about moving away from a complete stop. Once you are going
fast enough to be past the torque peak in first gear, it's *power* that
accelerates a vehicle, or moves it up a hill. The torque required is
produced by selecting the right gear in the transmission, so the engine
torque is not relevant.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

..... and I can't let that go. Torque is ALWAYS relevant. Power
(Horsepower) is nothing more than torque times rpm. A zillion RPM
times zero (irrelevent) torque = zero power. OTOH, while the bottom
end grunt of a diesel is nice to have, I DO agree that you can do just
fine with a high revving motor by utilizing the transmission well.

Jim
Ram 2500 CTD