Wagons used for towing in Europe

NO
you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
(2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
making your ears deaf.
Chris
__________________________________________________ _____

"Papa3" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 5, 7:38 am, Dan G wrote:

No, not to tow a glider. But, if you've ever tried to merge into
traffic on route 78 eastbound with a 20 ton dumptruck bearing down on
you at 65mph, you'll understand why there are times when a little
extra power might be nice to have :-)

P3

On Sep 5, 7:16 pm, "BlueCumulus" wrote:
NO
you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
(2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
making your ears deaf.
Chris
__________________________________________________ _____

"Papa3" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Sep 5, 7:38 am, Dan G wrote:

No, not to tow a glider. But, if you've ever tried to merge into
traffic on route 78 eastbound with a 20 ton dumptruck bearing down on
you at 65mph, you'll understand why there are times when a little
extra power might be nice to have :-)

P3- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chris,

Go back and read the post again, would you? The argument wasn't
between gas and diesel. I'm sold on diesel - have been for 20 years.
The comment was that there are some times you want a 286hp diesel
(also note the smiley face).

But, since you bring it up:

- Specs on the Peugot HDi give something like 140hp and 10 seconds
0-60 (and that's the larger HDi)
- Specs on an older BMW 320d give something like 165hp and 7.8
seconds 0-60 (the new 320d is about 6.0 seconds)

My point ws that sometimes 2 seconds means a lot (like when a 20 ton
truck is bearing down on you eating up about 100 feet of pavement
every second).

Now I know why the Diana2 guys were losing it !

P3

John Smith wrote:

This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider.

No one needs a glider either.


...this insanity is predestined for the US market.

We're so glad you don't have to endure our shame.

I would be happy make up a list of the things you should and should not
be allowed to do, think, or say, and mail it to you--or, I could just
post it here--since you seem to feel that sort of thing is appropriate.



Jack

BlueCumulus wrote:
NO
you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
(2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
making your ears deaf.
Chris

I can't let this one go: Papa3's comment was about merging onto a
highway, not about moving away from a complete stop. Once you are going
fast enough to be past the torque peak in first gear, it's *power* that
accelerates a vehicle, or moves it up a hill. The torque required is
produced by selecting the right gear in the transmission, so the engine
torque is not relevant.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Sep 7, 9:15 am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BlueCumulus wrote:
NO
you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
(2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
making your ears deaf.
Chris

I can't let this one go: Papa3's comment was about merging onto a
highway, not about moving away from a complete stop. Once you are going
fast enough to be past the torque peak in first gear, it's *power* that
accelerates a vehicle, or moves it up a hill. The torque required is
produced by selecting the right gear in the transmission, so the engine
torque is not relevant.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

..... and I can't let that go. Torque is ALWAYS relevant. Power
(Horsepower) is nothing more than torque times rpm. A zillion RPM
times zero (irrelevent) torque = zero power. OTOH, while the bottom
end grunt of a diesel is nice to have, I DO agree that you can do just
fine with a high revving motor by utilizing the transmission well.

Jim
Ram 2500 CTD

wrote:
On Sep 7, 9:15 am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BlueCumulus wrote:
NO
you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
(2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
making your ears deaf.
Chris
I can't let this one go: Papa3's comment was about merging onto a
highway, not about moving away from a complete stop. Once you are going
fast enough to be past the torque peak in first gear, it's *power* that
accelerates a vehicle, or moves it up a hill. The torque required is
produced by selecting the right gear in the transmission, so the engine
torque is not relevant.

.... and I can't let that go. Torque is ALWAYS relevant.

To the vehicle designer - yes. The designer chooses the transmission,
torque converter (if there is one), the rear axle gears, and the tire
diameter to match the torque out of the engine to the torque required at
the drive axle. The designer must also know the torque values involved
so the components are sized to handle the torque at each point in the
power train.

The vehicle operator just presses on the accelerator to supply the power
needed (automatic transmission). With a manual transmission, the
operator must also select the gear position required.

Power
(Horsepower) is nothing more than torque times rpm. A zillion RPM
times zero (irrelevent) torque = zero power.

I agree, and that's one of my points: you have to have power to move the
vehicle. You can't do it with zero power. A zillion foot-pounds of
torque times zero rpm = zero power, and you still don't move. Movement
requires power.

OTOH, while the bottom
end grunt of a diesel is nice to have,

The torque your power train can deliver to the rear wheels is important
when you are moving so slowly that you are still below the torque peak
in your lowest gear. For vehicles towing gliders, this is generally a
few miles per hour. How often do you need a lot of torque when you are
going slowly? I need it only for starting on a steep hill in the
motorhome, and the torque converter gives me all I need with just part
throttle - no grunting required from the gasoline fueled engine!

I DO agree that you can do just
fine with a high revving motor by utilizing the transmission well.

And that was my point: engine torque is not an important number for
towing a glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Sep 3, 1:29 am, "BlueCumulus" wrote:
All European Diesel cars have particle filters installed for
meeting highest emission standards. Maybe dear Arnold
Schwarzenegger should look over his shoulder back to his
home country Austria and crosscheck.

Chris

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message

...



BlueCumulus wrote:
Why would someone even think that a BMW is a good car for towing?
The first gear is too long and all gas engines do not have enough torque
at low rpm's.

Best for towing are Common Rail Turbo Diesel cars.

We currently can't get diesel cars in several parts of the US, as the
current models don't meet the more stringent emissions regulations in
California and other highly populated areas. This will change in a year
or two, but meanwhile, we have to make do with gas engines...

Marc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In US the problem are not cars but dirty diesel fuel. That is why
diesel cars are not allowed in many parts of the country. It is our
big oil companies fault.