NTSB question

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
when (or if) they are going to release information?

Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
last winter. See the preliminary report he

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X00158&key=1

Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.

Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
laid to rest.

Of course, a fatal accident is going to get priority over a fender-bender.

It's also going to be MUCH MORE thorough. Major components are going to be
subject to forensic testing, records are going to be very closely
scrutinized. Quite likely depositions are going to be taken rather than
just witness statements. The accident scene will be highly scrutinized.

The document you read on the NTSB site will be a composite of perhaps a
couple/several thousand pages of investigative notes, from several
investigators.

NOTE: It ain't like on TV where they're done in 45 minutes with 15 minutes
worth of commercials.

This is a true statement in the world of certified aircraft, but crashes of
experimentals do not typically benefit from in-depth investigations.

KB

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

Of course, a fatal accident is going to get priority over a
fender-bender.

It's also going to be MUCH MORE thorough. Major components are going to
be subject to forensic testing, records are going to be very closely
scrutinized. Quite likely depositions are going to be taken rather than
just witness statements. The accident scene will be highly scrutinized.

The document you read on the NTSB site will be a composite of perhaps a
couple/several thousand pages of investigative notes, from several
investigators.

NOTE: It ain't like on TV where they're done in 45 minutes with 15
minutes worth of commercials.

This is a true statement in the world of certified aircraft, but crashes
of experimentals do not typically benefit from in-depth investigations.


Fatal accidents do. Maybe not as much as certified, since much of the
forensics is left out, but note how many fatal accidents involving certified
aircraft took well over a year to a year and a half to reach a final
conclusion. This one that Jay mentioned has been going on seven months IIRC.

IIUC, the NTSB won't even come out for a non-injury accident involving a
home-built, and won't do much more than a cursory investigation for a HB
accident with minor injuries.

Two things the NTSB will look at are pilot error and mechanical failure. In
a HB, they don't really look at the mechanicals, but they will look at the
pilots actions. Is this not true?

Jay Honeck wrote:
How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
when (or if) they are going to release information?

Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
last winter. See the preliminary report he

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X00158&key=1

Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.

Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
laid to rest.

Hi Jay -- last October 18th (2006), my airplane was totaled in an
emergency landing in the desert due to a complete engine failure (oil
cooler split on start-up, engine seized about 6 minutes into the
flight). We thankfully walked away with minor cuts/bruises, thanks in
large part to some luck in that we got far enough to be away from
houses/buildings and were over the desert when it quit (although the
desert is NOT as flat as it looks from 50 feet up!), and that I was with
my CFIG who made a great landing on some rough desert floor and kept
"flying" till the gear snapped off and it abruptly went down on its
chin. Our biggest scars are internal, but we are flying again, having
learned a lot from the experience.

It was obvious that the oil cooler split at one of the bottom fins, but
the NTSB removed the cooler and the thermo-coupler for further testing.
As of a few days ago, there still has been no final report issued, and
we too are awaiting that for various reasons. I've been told it usually
takes around 10 months, give or take, for a final report to be issued,
and that obviously, accidents involving fatalities take priority.

As for the comparison with other more recent accidents that have been
laid to rest, the investigation and results of those other accidents may
simply be more black-and-white and therefore easier/faster to resolve
and close.

I'm about to call the NTSB and ask if/when we can expect a final report.
I'll let you know if I find out anything that may be helpful.

"Shirl" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:
How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
when (or if) they are going to release information?

Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
last winter. See the preliminary report he

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X00158&key=1

Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.

Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
laid to rest.

Hi Jay -- last October 18th (2006), my airplane was totaled in an
emergency landing in the desert due to a complete engine failure (oil
cooler split on start-up, engine seized about 6 minutes into the
flight). We thankfully walked away with minor cuts/bruises, thanks in
large part to some luck in that we got far enough to be away from
houses/buildings and were over the desert when it quit (although the
desert is NOT as flat as it looks from 50 feet up!), and that I was with
my CFIG who made a great landing on some rough desert floor and kept
"flying" till the gear snapped off and it abruptly went down on its
chin. Our biggest scars are internal, but we are flying again, having
learned a lot from the experience.

It was obvious that the oil cooler split at one of the bottom fins, but
the NTSB removed the cooler and the thermo-coupler for further testing.
As of a few days ago, there still has been no final report issued, and
we too are awaiting that for various reasons. I've been told it usually
takes around 10 months, give or take, for a final report to be issued,
and that obviously, accidents involving fatalities take priority.

As for the comparison with other more recent accidents that have been
laid to rest, the investigation and results of those other accidents may
simply be more black-and-white and therefore easier/faster to resolve
and close.

I'm about to call the NTSB and ask if/when we can expect a final report.
I'll let you know if I find out anything that may be helpful.

What were you flying?, certified, or home-built?

At least you walked away with the only personal damage being to your ego.
:~)

Shirl:
Hi Jay -- last October 18th (2006), my airplane was totaled in an
emergency landing in the desert due to a complete engine failure (oil
cooler split on start-up, engine seized about 6 minutes into the
flight). We thankfully walked away with minor cuts/bruises, thanks in
large part to some luck in that we got far enough to be away from
houses/buildings and were over the desert when it quit (although the
desert is NOT as flat as it looks from 50 feet up!), and that I was with
my CFIG who made a great landing on some rough desert floor and kept
"flying" till the gear snapped off and it abruptly went down on its
chin. Our biggest scars are internal, but we are flying again, having
learned a lot from the experience.

It was obvious that the oil cooler split at one of the bottom fins, but
the NTSB removed the cooler and the thermo-coupler for further testing.
As of a few days ago, there still has been no final report issued, and
we too are awaiting that for various reasons. I've been told it usually
takes around 10 months, give or take, for a final report to be issued,
and that obviously, accidents involving fatalities take priority.

As for the comparison with other more recent accidents that have been
laid to rest, the investigation and results of those other accidents may
simply be more black-and-white and therefore easier/faster to resolve
and close.

I'm about to call the NTSB and ask if/when we can expect a final report.
I'll let you know if I find out anything that may be helpful.

"Matt Barrow" wrote:
What were you flying?, certified, or home-built?

A 1961 Shinn, predecessor to the Varga. They are certified, but they
only made less than 200 of them, there are probably around 150 still
flying. It was supposed to be competition for the C-150 as a primary
trainer, but it never really caught on. It's an O-320, 2-seat,
tandem-with-canopy, tricycle that flies with a stick. Great, fun little
airplane. The FAA was there less than 30 minutes after it happened.
After making sure our injuries were minor, the first thing they said
they were going to need were the aircraft logbooks, which I am
meticulous about, thank goodness.

At least you walked away with the only personal damage being
to your ego. :~)

It wasn't pilot error, so the damage wasn't to ego, in fact the FAA
investigator said the other two oil-loss, engine failures he had
investigated were both fatal, so he was complimentary on how we handled
it. The worst part was going through the scary experience, the
apprehension you feel afterward, and realizing how QUICKLY everything
happens after the engine fails and quits -- you don't have much time to
make those critical decisions. We walked away with some valuable
experience in addition to our minor injuries. We do many things
differently now. I guess we must have been fairly well prepared or we
wouldn't have walked away, but we're even moreso now.

"Shirl" wrote in message
...
At least you walked away with the only personal damage being
to your ego. :~)

It wasn't pilot error, so the damage wasn't to ego, in fact the FAA
investigator said the other two oil-loss, engine failures he had
investigated were both fatal, so he was complimentary on how we handled
it.

I said your ego (not ego in the Freudian sense), not your pride.

Your ego kept you alive, thank gawd.

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:44:49 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:

How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
when (or if) they are going to release information?

Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
last winter. See the preliminary report he

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X00158&key=1

Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.

Typical flow time in the past has been one year from accident to Probable Cause.
They seem to be putting some final reports up earlier lately, but these are
generally the cut-and-dried cases (no mechanical issues, pilot admits mistake,
etc.).

Ron Wanttaja

Typical flow time in the past has been one year from accident to Probable Cause.
They seem to be putting some final reports up earlier lately, but these are
generally the cut-and-dried cases (no mechanical issues, pilot admits mistake,
etc.).

Thanks Ron (and all) for commenting.

It just gripes one to see a "Preliminary Report" still posted so long
after the crash. Corey Lidle's encounter with a skyscraper happened
just 3 months before Blaine's accident, and it's already seen
"Preliminary", "Probable Cause" and "Final" reports...

Of course, that one was pretty obvious.

We're all eager to find out what really happened the day our friend
(and his passenger) died. I'm still stunned that a high-time CFI/
charter pilot/home-builder could be killed by an engine failure (of,
as yet, undetermined cause) over flat terrain. We all hope to learn
something from the NTSB report.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Sep 11, 2:44 pm, Jay Honeck wrote:
How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
when (or if) they are going to release information?

Thanks,

Jay Honeck

I am mildly interested, too.
A close relative of mine was involved in a non-injury takeoff accident
when the aircraft he was flying rolled left at rotation and impacted
the ground causing multiple rollovers and complete destruction of the
aircraft. Really, really amazing he wasn't hurt & there was no post-
crash fire. He walked away & is fine.
This was months ago & the aircraft is still sitting on the edge of the
field it crashed in. For all we know, no to little action by NTSB of
yet...
I have purposefully withheld details of this crash at family's
request.

Ricky

For all we know, no to little action by NTSB of
yet...
..

Ricky

Yup, they are gonna be surprised when they finally hear about it!

denny