Is it just me or does this seem a little close to the crowd?

It's just you. The plane flies parallel and with sufficient distance to
the crowd, so even if he'd hit the ground, nobody would have been in
danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
stuff or pilots.

Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
routinely.

And concerning Dudley's "our flight safety community for air shows", I'm
looking forward with interest what they intend to investigate about a
Portugese registered airplane flying in Portugal...

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
It's just you. The plane flies parallel and with sufficient distance to
the crowd, so even if he'd hit the ground, nobody would have been in
danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
stuff or pilots.

Yes, and heaven knows that it is acceptable to put pilots and their parked
aircraft at an unnecessary risk.


Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
routinely.

No. Their goal is to entertain the crowd but NOT put themselves in danger.



And concerning Dudley's "our flight safety community for air shows", I'm
looking forward with interest what they intend to investigate about a
Portugese registered airplane flying in Portugal...

While there is no unified set of rules for airshows, there are governing
bodies in all developed countries. Those governing bodies usually react
with disapproval on stupid pilot tricks (at airshows or otherwise) which put
the public at risk.

Kyle Boatright wrote:

danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
staff or pilots.

Yes, and heaven knows that it is acceptable to put pilots and their parked
aircraft at an unnecessary risk.

The spectators are usually laypersons and can't judge the risks, so it's
the organisator's and the pilot's responibility to protect them.
Contributing airshow pilots however can judge the risks (I would hope!),
and if they decide to deliberately stand there during a flyby, it's
their choice.

Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
routinely.

No. Their goal is to entertain the crowd but NOT put themselves in danger.

You can read, can't you? Where did I say it was their goal to endanger
themselves? It's their goal to entertain (and probably also a bit to
show off, I dare to assume), and to reach that goal, they accept to take
risks.

BTW, they take routinely much bigger risks than that low flying
airliner. Flying inverted a couple of feet above the runway is *much*
more risky, yet done routinely at airshows and I've yet to see a post
about that here. Probably the most stupid thing done at airshows is the
"inverted ribbon cut", but you see it everywhere and nobody seems to
care. E.g. http://youtube.com/watch?v=sCbwRzgJLhk. In that particular
video you also see one low level pull in which the pilot nearly stalls
the plane. Most dangerous at that altitude, but people don't even
realize the situation. The same goes for those stupid low level flicks
shortly after take off. E.g. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uy0KkqFf_bU
Extremely risky, because in a flick you have *never* 100% control. Yet
nobody seems to care. But an airliner flying low... wow, *this* is going
to cause discussions! It reminds me somewhat of the quality of certain
newspaper reports which have been discussed here on a regular basis.

BTW, I don't say that I like such displays. Actually I hate them, and I
don't attend airshows for that very reason. I do attend aerobatic
competitions, though, because they are flown at a safe altitude.
Besides, the flying there is mostly better (i.e. more precise), albeit
less spectacular.

bodies in all developed countries. Those governing bodies usually react
with disapproval on stupid pilot tricks (at airshows or otherwise) which put
the public at risk.

You can read, can't you? It was my point that the public wasn't put at risk.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Kyle Boatright wrote:

danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
staff or pilots.

Yes, and heaven knows that it is acceptable to put pilots and their
parked aircraft at an unnecessary risk.

The spectators are usually laypersons and can't judge the risks, so it's
the organisator's and the pilot's responibility to protect them.
Contributing airshow pilots however can judge the risks (I would hope!),
and if they decide to deliberately stand there during a flyby, it's their
choice.

Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
routinely.

No. Their goal is to entertain the crowd but NOT put themselves in
danger.

You can read, can't you? Where did I say it was their goal to endanger
themselves? It's their goal to entertain (and probably also a bit to show
off, I dare to assume), and to reach that goal, they accept to take risks.

BTW, they take routinely much bigger risks than that low flying airliner.
Flying inverted a couple of feet above the runway is *much* more risky,
yet done routinely at airshows and I've yet to see a post about that here.
Probably the most stupid thing done at airshows is the "inverted ribbon
cut", but you see it everywhere and nobody seems to care. E.g.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sCbwRzgJLhk. In that particular video you also
see one low level pull in which the pilot nearly stalls the plane. Most
dangerous at that altitude, but people don't even realize the situation.
The same goes for those stupid low level flicks shortly after take off.
E.g. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uy0KkqFf_bU Extremely risky, because in a
flick you have *never* 100% control. Yet nobody seems to care. But an
airliner flying low... wow, *this* is going to cause discussions! It
reminds me somewhat of the quality of certain newspaper reports which have
been discussed here on a regular basis.

BTW, I don't say that I like such displays. Actually I hate them, and I
don't attend airshows for that very reason. I do attend aerobatic
competitions, though, because they are flown at a safe altitude. Besides,
the flying there is mostly better (i.e. more precise), albeit less
spectacular.

bodies in all developed countries. Those governing bodies usually react
with disapproval on stupid pilot tricks (at airshows or otherwise) which
put the public at risk.

You can read, can't you? It was my point that the public wasn't put at
risk.


The public WAS put at risk. Those spectators, some of whom may be pilots?
At risk. Anyone within a couple of miles of the airport? At risk. Clip a
wingtip and that multi-hundred thousand pound bundle of aluminum, steel,
titanium, and jet fuel could end up virtually anywhere within a few miles of
the airport.


Stefan

Kyle Boatright wrote:

wingtip and that multi-hundred thousand pound bundle of aluminum, steel,
titanium, and jet fuel could end up virtually anywhere within a few miles of
the airport.

Did you ever hear of the principle of conservation of linear momentum?

"Stefan" wrote

Did you ever hear of the principle of conservation of linear momentum?

What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and starts
spinning? It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd, if it
was spinning into the ground.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans writes:

What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and starts
spinning?

It generally will not, precisely because of that momentum thing. Instead, it
will continue flying with a damaged wing tip and some perturbation of the
flight path and handling characteristics.

It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd, if it
was spinning into the ground.

Just from hitting a wing tip against something? Do you really think the
insignificant force from clipping a wing tip can swing 200 tons of aircraft
through 90 degrees and a 200-foot radius towards a crowd? The laws of physics
don't allow that.

Morgans wrote:
"Stefan" wrote
Did you ever hear of the principle of conservation of linear momentum?

What happens to parts of the aircraft if it clips a wing tip, and starts
spinning? It is certainly probable, and possibly even probable that some
parts of the aircraft could be flung in the direction of the crowd, if it
was spinning into the ground.

In this particular film clip involving the Air Bus, had this aircraft
caught his left tip while initiating a left bank at the airspeed he was
maintaining through the pass, the best guess I'm getting from those I
know who have seen the clip is an immediate nose down moment resulting
in ground impact of the aircraft.
In short, it had all the potential of being a real mess.
After viewing the clip myself, I totally agree with this assessment. It
was an EXTREMELY dangerous moment!
Naturally, there is no way to be absolutely certain of any reaction of
the aircraft, but my money says it was a very bad moment.

--
Dudley Henriques

Stefan wrote:
It's just you. The plane flies parallel and with sufficient distance to
the crowd, so even if he'd hit the ground, nobody would have been in
danger. The folks you see on the ground are not spectators but airshow
stuff or pilots.

Whether the pilot put himself in danger is another question. I can't and
won't judge it, but even if he were, that's what airshow pilots do
routinely.

And concerning Dudley's "our flight safety community for air shows", I'm
looking forward with interest what they intend to investigate about a
Portugese registered airplane flying in Portugal...

It most certainly isn't him as I said.
The issues involved with air show flight safety involve much more than
crowd safety. It involves ANY incident or occurrence involved with
display and demonstration flying and that venue's peripheral issues.
In this case, this incident is of "concern" if nothing else, to the
entire demonstration community.
There exists within the air show community a HUGE mailing list comprised
of both current and ex- display pilots who devote copious amounts of
their time discussing ways to make the venue safer for everyone concerned.
You may see the result of this "inside communication" going on within
the community by obtaining a copy of Gen Des Barker's book "Zero Error
Margin"; a complete and in-depth study of air show accidents over the
past 3 decades with input in this volume from hundreds of display pilots
military and civilian, past and present, including myself.
I will be most happy to supply you with information to obtain this book
by back channel contact if you wish. I believe it is still available
after the first printing.
Since the display communities reach is international, the event in
Portugal is nothing unusual for us to be discussing; same for the
Hurricane accident this week in the UK. Both are now under review, and
recommendations no doubt will be made through proper channels that
addresses the pertinent issues in the hope that the flight safety
picture will be enhanced for the future.
It is partially through the input of the air show community's
representatives that changes are suggested to and implemented by the
various governing agencies throughout the world who control the
demonstration safety issues.
It's a tough business and there are many of us out here who have
dedicated our lives to helping in any way possible the betterment of
flight safety on the air show demonstration circuit.
This year has been especially hard and many lives have been lost.
It is in part the observation, and involvement of the world's display
pilots, in constant communication with each other, who are trying to
make it a safer environment for all involved.


--
Dudley Henriques