Downwind Landings

"Kyle Boatright"
What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind?

Runway length.
Jim

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...

"Kyle Boatright"
What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind?

Runway length.
Jim

Controllability doesn't enter into equation? It does for me.

With a 10 knot headwind, I have lots of rudder authority at 10 or 20 knots
of groundspeed on roll-out. With a 10 knot tailwind, there is no rudder
authority at 10 knots of groundspeed.

There is always the consideration of an engine failure. On takeoff or
landing, I'd prefer to be pointed into the wind if the prop stops, rather
than having to land downwind or attempt a low altitude turn into the wind...

KB

Kyle Boatright wrote:
"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
"Kyle Boatright"
What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind?
Runway length.
Jim

Controllability doesn't enter into equation? It does for me.

With a 10 knot headwind, I have lots of rudder authority at 10 or 20 knots
of groundspeed on roll-out. With a 10 knot tailwind, there is no rudder
authority at 10 knots of groundspeed.

There is always the consideration of an engine failure. On takeoff or
landing, I'd prefer to be pointed into the wind if the prop stops, rather
than having to land downwind or attempt a low altitude turn into the wind...

It would depend on what aircraft type you fly. With Cessna's and
Piper's, there is no need for rudder authority below 30 knots or even
higher. I've never flown an airplane with a free castering nose wheel,
but I suspect rudder authority is more important there, however, it
still seems like the brakes would work fine for directional control at
10 knots.

Matt

On Sep 23, 5:06 pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
It would depend on what aircraft type you fly. With Cessna's and
Piper's, there is no need for rudder authority below 30 knots or even
higher. I've never flown an airplane with a free castering nose wheel,
but I suspect rudder authority is more important there, however, it
still seems like the brakes would work fine for directional control at
10 knots.

Matt

I've done downwind takeoffs and have scared myself a few times.
Even five or ten knots leaves you with less control, and I might wish
I had that control. Taking off in a gusting tailwind might drop you in
the weeds off the end of the runway, too.

Dan

Depends heavily on the aircraft. I know for a fact that a lightly
loaded DC-10 will not be able to
land and stop at McCarran with a 10+knot tailwind. Been onboard when
it was tried and
remember going off the airport boundries at less than 30 AGL You get a
new perspective on
things when you see TV antennas go by above you and chimmneys just
below you!

Lockheed L-10A is virtually impossible to land safely with any
tailwind. It has so much tail
surface that it either slams the tail down or tries to put it on the
nose.

deHaviland Super Chipmunk with a Krier tail gets super squirrelly with
any kind of tailwind. Of
course the tail will come off the ground at about 15 knots forward
speed

wrote in news:1190595059.529602.74370
@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

Depends heavily on the aircraft. I know for a fact that a lightly
loaded DC-10 will not be able to
land and stop at McCarran with a 10+knot tailwind. Been onboard when
it was tried and
remember going off the airport boundries at less than 30 AGL You get a
new perspective on
things when you see TV antennas go by above you and chimmneys just
below you!

Lockheed L-10A is virtually impossible to land safely with any
tailwind. It has so much tail
surface that it either slams the tail down or tries to put it on the
nose.

deHaviland Super Chipmunk with a Krier tail gets super squirrelly with
any kind of tailwind. Of
course the tail will come off the ground at about 15 knots forward
speed





These are all completely incorrect.

You can get a DC-10 at max landing weight into a 6,000 foot strip
easily. Even hot and high.

I've routinely operated an A300 into a 6,000 fooot strip with a fifteen
knot tailwind limit (which we often were up against due to the natur of
the strip) fro take off and landing.

I've landed ( a real) kissing cousin f the Lockheed 10, the Twin Beech,
with more than a 10 knot tailwind. It's fine... So would the Lockheed
be.

The Chipmunk, the same. All tailwheel airplanes get more demanding with
a tailwind as the groundspeed sinks to a point at which the surfaces
aren't doing much, but if the airplane was straight up to that point and
there isn't a massive crosswind, then the tailwheel and brakes take care
of the rest.

And I've flown a real Chipmunk...

Bertie

And I've flown a real Chipmunk...

Hope the ASPCA doesn't hear about this...

http://www.aspca.org

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:
What is your threshold for landing (or departing) downwind?
Runway length.
Jim

Controllability doesn't enter into equation? It does for me.

With a 10 knot headwind, I have lots of rudder authority at 10 or 20 knots
of groundspeed on roll-out. With a 10 knot tailwind, there is no rudder
authority at 10 knots of groundspeed.

There is always the consideration of an engine failure. On takeoff or
landing, I'd prefer to be pointed into the wind if the prop stops, rather
than having to land downwind or attempt a low altitude turn into the wind...

It would depend on what aircraft type you fly. With Cessna's and
Piper's, there is no need for rudder authority below 30 knots or even
higher. I've never flown an airplane with a free castering nose wheel,
but I suspect rudder authority is more important there, however, it
still seems like the brakes would work fine for directional control at
10 knots.

My home airport (KLAM) is a one-way airport. All landings are on rw 27,
all departures are on rw 9 regardless of wind conditions. This is due to
rapidly rising terrain to the west, as well as the presence of nearby
restricted airspace and a townsite immediately to the west. Thus, I
have *lots* of experience in landing and taking off with a tailwind.
The most important thing I've learned is this: AIRSPEED AIRSPEED AIRSPEED!
Ignore how fast you *think* you're going. Ignore how fast the outside world
looks like it's going by. Pay attention to the airspeed.

Other posters are correct in that you need to turn base further out when
landing with a tailwind. How much farther out? Depends on the tailwind.
I wish there were an easy rule of thumb (like "turn base when the approach
end is 45 deg behind your wing), but there isn't.

In years of doing this, my own personal minimums (or perhaps "maximums" in
this case) are 15 kt direct tailwind. This is at an airport that sits
at 7300' MSL and has a 5300' runway, and I fly a PA32-300. If it's warm out
( 70 deg F), and the density altitude starts to creep up, that maximum will
go down.

I haven't found controlability to be much of an issue with tailwind t/o's
or landings, but then I fly a wide gear Cherokee 6. It can be with a
taildragger. The shallower climb angle is also most certainly something to
consider, especially if there are obstructions at the departure end of the
runway. Fortunately, at my home airport, the east end of the runway ends
in a serious downward cliff.

My recommendation: pay attention to the AIRSPEED! (and practice a few
tailwind landings and/or takeoffs - they're really not as terrifying
as they're made out to be).

-- Dane

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message


There is always the consideration of an engine failure. On takeoff or
landing, I'd prefer to be pointed into the wind if the prop stops,
rather than having to land downwind or attempt a low altitude turn
into the wind...

I'd rather be pointed into the wind, too, but if the failure happens away
from the field, I think I'd be a lot less concerned with landing into the
wind than I would in actually making the field.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
http://sage1solutions.com/products
NEW! FlyteBalance v2.0 (W&B); FlyteLog v2.0 (Logbook)
____________________

"John T" wrote in
m:

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message


There is always the consideration of an engine failure. On takeoff
or landing, I'd prefer to be pointed into the wind if the prop stops,
rather than having to land downwind or attempt a low altitude turn
into the wind...

I'd rather be pointed into the wind, too, but if the failure happens
away from the field, I think I'd be a lot less concerned with landing
into the wind than I would in actually making the field.


True, but downwind off field landings can be nasty. If it all goes horribly
wrong on you you'll be travelling a lot faster with a lot less control than
you would have with an into wind landing in an inferior field. Also, your
glide path control will be much more difficult with a tailwind for two
reasons. One, the angle will be much more shallow giving you progress
judgement difficulties and of course your glide angle will deteriorate as
the wind gradient gives you less tailwind as you descend. But as well as
this you won't be used to making a glide approach this way and your chancs
for success will be reduced because of this.
Having said all that, if you've only got one place to land and downwind is
the only way you can do it, well..


Bertie