When to descend

"Dane Spearing" wrote in message
...

Hmmmmm....I'm not sure I buy this. The clearance stated "...maintain
4000'
*until established*..." which to me says that I'm to remain at 4000' until
I am on a *charted* section of the approach. Simply being in the TAA
does not mean I'm on a charted section of the approach. For this
clearance,
I would say I'm on a charted section of the approach after crossing the
IAF
(UDUZI). I would not descend below 4000' until after crossing UDUZI, and
then I would descent to 2000' as depicted. Or am I being too conservative
here?


TAAs are published portions of the approach, when you cross the TAA boundary
you're *established* on the approach.

Dane Spearing wrote:
In article , Bee wrote:

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:


"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...


You are coming from northeast of SFB. ATC says "Cleared direct UDUZI,
maintain 4000' until established, cleared RNAV 9L approach."

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0710/00917R9L.PDF


When do you descend below 4,000 and to what altitude?



30 miles from UDUZI, 2700 MSL.



correct.


Hmmmmm....I'm not sure I buy this. The clearance stated "...maintain 4000'
*until established*..." which to me says that I'm to remain at 4000' until
I am on a *charted* section of the approach. Simply being in the TAA
does not mean I'm on a charted section of the approach. For this clearance,
I would say I'm on a charted section of the approach after crossing the IAF
(UDUZI). I would not descend below 4000' until after crossing UDUZI, and
then I would descent to 2000' as depicted. Or am I being too conservative
here?

-- Dane

Too conservative and wrong. The altitudes within a TAA are operational
altitudes, otherwise they would not contain an altitude with an underscore.

On 10/09/07 08:09, Dan Luke wrote:
You are coming from northeast of SFB. ATC says "Cleared direct UDUZI,
maintain 4000' until established, cleared RNAV 9L approach."

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0710/00917R9L.PDF


When do you descend below 4,000 and to what altitude?


UDUZI is the IAF, so once you're cleared for the approach, and you reach
the IAF, you fly the altitudes prescribed by the approach. For the leg
from UDUZI to UGMAH, that would be at or above 2000'.

I assume your question is due to the sector altitude of 2500 in the
region from UGMAH NW, between the 140 and 185 from UGMAH? Otherwise,
perhaps you could explain what it is about the plate that leaves you
with a question?


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:

On 10/09/07 08:09, Dan Luke wrote:

You are coming from northeast of SFB. ATC says "Cleared direct UDUZI,
maintain 4000' until established, cleared RNAV 9L approach."

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0710/00917R9L.PDF


When do you descend below 4,000 and to what altitude?



UDUZI is the IAF, so once you're cleared for the approach, and you reach
the IAF, you fly the altitudes prescribed by the approach. For the leg
from UDUZI to UGMAH, that would be at or above 2000'.

I assume your question is due to the sector altitude of 2500 in the
region from UGMAH NW, between the 140 and 185 from UGMAH? Otherwise,
perhaps you could explain what it is about the plate that leaves you
with a question?


Assuming he is arriving between the UDUZI 185 bearing and the UGMAH 095
bearing (the TAA left base sector, AIM 5-4-5-d) he can descend to 2700
crossing 30 ATD from UDUZI. Then, once crossing UDUZI the altitude is
2,000.

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:09:26 -0500, "Dan Luke"
wrote:

You are coming from northeast of SFB. ATC says "Cleared direct UDUZI,
maintain 4000' until established, cleared RNAV 9L approach."

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0710/00917R9L.PDF


When do you descend below 4,000 and to what altitude?

Coming from the NE, you may descend to 2700' after crossing 30 NM from
UDUZI (in the Left Base Area of the TAA).

Since there seems to be some variation in the responses to your question,
here is the relevant AIM paragraph:

Pilots entering the TAA and cleared by air traffic control, are expected
to proceed directly to the IAF associated with that area of the TAA at the
altitude depicted, unless otherwise cleared by air traffic control. Cleared
direct to an Initial Approach Fix (IAF) without a clearance for the
procedure does not authorize a pilot to descend to a lower TAA altitude.

Perhaps the controller should have said "...maintain 4000 until entering
the TAA". But I think his intent is clear. If he wanted you at 4000 until
crossing UDUZI, he should have either stated that explicitly, or not
cleared you for the approach.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

Coming from the NE, you may descend to 2700' after crossing 30 NM from
UDUZI (in the Left Base Area of the TAA).

Since there seems to be some variation in the responses to your question,
here is the relevant AIM paragraph:

Pilots entering the TAA and cleared by air traffic control, are expected
to proceed directly to the IAF associated with that area of the TAA at the
altitude depicted, unless otherwise cleared by air traffic control.
Cleared
direct to an Initial Approach Fix (IAF) without a clearance for the
procedure does not authorize a pilot to descend to a lower TAA altitude.

Perhaps the controller should have said "...maintain 4000 until entering
the TAA". But I think his intent is clear. If he wanted you at 4000
until crossing UDUZI, he should have either stated that explicitly, or not
cleared you for the approach.


He doesn't say whether this is an actual clearance received or a
hypothetical scenario. The book phraseology would be, "Cleared to UDUZI,
maintain four thousand until entering the TAA, cleared RNAV runway niner
left approach." If he's already crossed the TAA boundary the clearance
would be just, "Cleared RNAV runway niner left approach."

On 10/9/2007 1:20 PM, Steven P. McNicoll wrote the following:


He doesn't say whether this is an actual clearance received or a
hypothetical scenario. The book phraseology would be, "Cleared to UDUZI,
maintain four thousand until entering the TAA, cleared RNAV runway niner
left approach." If he's already crossed the TAA boundary the clearance
would be just, "Cleared RNAV runway niner left approach."


"Cleared direct UDUZI, maintain 4000' until established, cleared RNAV 9L
approach." sounds like a lot of clearances I have received. Possibly not by the
book verbiage, but real world IMHO.

Why would you read anything into it? I'm not being argumentative; I just don't
understand why you would not "maintain 4000' until established" and at that
point begin to descend. Or, if you didn't like the profile, get back to ATC and
"request lower."

It could be that ATC had crossing traffic at 3000' -- no?

"Mitty" wrote in message
...

"Cleared direct UDUZI, maintain 4000' until established, cleared RNAV 9L
approach." sounds like a lot of clearances I have received. Possibly not
by the book verbiage, but real world IMHO.

Why would you read anything into it?


I don't.



I'm not being argumentative; I just don't understand why you would not
"maintain 4000' until established" and at that point begin to descend.
Or, if you didn't like the profile, get back to ATC and "request lower."


I don't have to request lower from ATC, clearance for the approach
authorizes me to descend to 2700 at the TAA boundary.



It could be that ATC had crossing traffic at 3000' -- no?


Then he's got a deal.

don't have to request lower from ATC, clearance for the approach
authorizes me to descend to 2700 at the TAA boundary.


I'm with Mitty on this one. AIM Section 5-4-5.d.4(b) Says:

"Pilots entering the TAA and cleared by air traffic control, are
expected to proceed directly to the IAF associated with that area of
the TAA at the altitude depicted, unless otherwise cleared by air
traffic control."

If the clearance was indeed "...maintain 4000 until established" that
would fit the "..unless otherwise cleared by air traffic control"
clause.

To put this to a test, ask yourself when would you report established
on the approach if asked by ATC to ".. report established on the
approach"? My answer would be when I'm on one of the depicted
portions of the approach and not the TAA.

I guess one could argue that the TAA is a depicted portion of the
approach but I can't find any official publication pointing to that
fact.

Still not arguing, just trying to understand ...

On 10/9/2007 2:38 PM, Steven P. McNicoll wrote the following:

I'm not being argumentative; I just don't understand why you would not
"maintain 4000' until established" and at that point begin to descend.
Or, if you didn't like the profile, get back to ATC and "request lower."


I don't have to request lower from ATC, clearance for the approach
authorizes me to descend to 2700 at the TAA boundary.



So the boundary is equivalent to becoming established? Or the "until
established" bit is bad phraseology or redundant?

It could be that ATC had crossing traffic at 3000' -- no?


Then he's got a deal.


What if you _were_ the controller and _did_ have the crossing traffic. What
would be the clearance you would give to the guy at 4000' to keep him up there
until the potential deal was over? Simply delay the approach clearance?