737 thinks it's a DC-10?

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

F. Baum writes:

As for MXs asertion that you can take off with two engines, he is
full of it as usual. There would not be enough directional control to
do this on most of these jets.

Boeing occasionally demonstrated the 727 to prospects by taking off
and setting one engine to idle just before rotation. You might want
to write to them and tell them that they were full of it, too.





You are an idiot. We used to have to do it in the airplnae for crew
certification.

You have no idea of what you're talking about, fjukkktard.


Bertie

On Nov 9, 10:27 am, Bob Moore wrote:
F. Baum wrote


All Boeing 4 engine jets can be three-engine
ferried. I've done them in B-707s.

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727
PanAm (retired)

Bob thanks. I always wondered about this which is why I posted the
comment, to see if anyone had other experiences. The guys who sign my
check aint got no 4 engine jobs (We aint got no 3 engine jobs anymore
either). I asume this requiered a checkout ? I remember reading an
acident report on a frieghter DC8 that tried to do this and on the
second or third attempt they departed the side of the runway and
unfortunatly didnt live to tell about it. They had not been checked
out to do this.

"F. Baum" wrote in
ups.com:

On Nov 9, 9:33 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"F. Baum" wrote
roups.com:
.
As for MXs asertion that you can take off with two engines, he is
full of it as usual.
He wasn't talking about ferrying, he was talking about a V1 cut as
far as I could see.

OOOOps! Sorry about that MX. I should not have said you are full of
it. Some of your posts are actually entertaining.

You can ferry a 727 with one out. My company has done it and I've
seen the Boeing paperwork for it. It's not a big deal in the 72'

Thanks for the update. I always wondered about that so I thought I
would post it here to see if anyone else had a diifferent experience.
At my shop we werent aloud to do this and judging by how much work the
engine out missed was, this would have been alot of fun.

Well, empty it wouldn't have been too different from taking off at max.
Our's had -7s as well and they were 200s so it was no ball of fire on
three heavy.

You can also get some twins off on one engine from a standing start!
You just have to introduce power gradually. I've done it in a 757 sim
at 210,000 off a 10,000 foot runway. I've been told that it's legal
to ferry a 757 on one engine but I have no credible confirmation of
this. I have no doubt it could be done, though. Why you would want to
is beyond me, though.

Exactly. I have seen a crew doing engine out touch and goes with a
certain turboprop and I have heard you could this with other twins,
but nothing credible from a standing start.


Well, we used to do V1 cuts in the airplanes which was pretty exciting
in some airplanes, the 737-200 in particular which had a roll yaw
coupling that got your attention. I don;t think anyone in the world is
doing these any more but an empty airplane will do it no problem.
Certified airplanes will do exaclty what it says on the label. I had an
engine blow to bits on a 73 just below V1 on a limiting runway once and
we stopped. We used almost the whole runway, but we stopped just like Mr
Boeing said we would. Another 737 lost one on exactly the same runway
for the same reason (bird strike) and went and it did exactly what they
said it would do there as well,



Bertie

On Nov 9, 10:28 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
F. Baum writes:

Boeing occasionally demonstrated the 727 to prospects by taking off and
setting one engine to idle just before rotation. You might want to write to
them and tell them that they were full of it, too.

This is called a V1 cut and it is done on every sim check on every
crew for every plane flown in the world. The regs require the planes
weight to be limited so the plane can either stop on the remaining
runway if the engine fails before V1 or continue (and climout) if the
engine fails after V1. Go back and read Moores exellent post on the
subject.
KFBaum

On Nov 9, 10:48 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Well, we used to do V1 cuts in the airplanes which was pretty exciting
in some airplanes, the 737-200 in particular which had a roll yaw
coupling that got your attention. I don;t think anyone in the world is
doing these any more but an empty airplane will do it no problem.
Certified airplanes will do exaclty what it says on the label. I had an
engine blow to bits on a 73 just below V1 on a limiting runway once and
we stopped. We used almost the whole runway, but we stopped just like Mr
Boeing said we would. Another 737 lost one on exactly the same runway
for the same reason (bird strike) and went and it did exactly what they
said it would do there as well,

Of all the performance paramaters the accelerate stop charts have
always been the most impresive to me. I had a good kitbuilding buddy
who had a birdstrike in a 300 on a 6400 ft runway that I thought would
be dangerous as all hell and they went past V1 by a few and still
stopped it , without melting the plugs no less. I flew in the next day
with a couple of mecanics and they replaced several fan blades and we
ferried it to a maintenece base for further repairs. Just amazing what
these jets will do.

"F. Baum" wrote in news:1194632625.438524.118820
@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

On Nov 9, 10:48 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Well, we used to do V1 cuts in the airplanes which was pretty exciting
in some airplanes, the 737-200 in particular which had a roll yaw
coupling that got your attention. I don;t think anyone in the world is
doing these any more but an empty airplane will do it no problem.
Certified airplanes will do exaclty what it says on the label. I had an
engine blow to bits on a 73 just below V1 on a limiting runway once and
we stopped. We used almost the whole runway, but we stopped just like Mr
Boeing said we would. Another 737 lost one on exactly the same runway
for the same reason (bird strike) and went and it did exactly what they
said it would do there as well,

Of all the performance paramaters the accelerate stop charts have
always been the most impresive to me. I had a good kitbuilding buddy
who had a birdstrike in a 300 on a 6400 ft runway that I thought would
be dangerous as all hell and they went past V1 by a few and still
stopped it , without melting the plugs no less. I flew in the next day
with a couple of mecanics and they replaced several fan blades and we
ferried it to a maintenece base for further repairs. Just amazing what
these jets will do.


That's short all right. Gives you great confidence in them when you see
taht and makes the V1 decision easy. Bertie

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:33:11 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

"F. Baum" wrote in
oups.com:

On Nov 8, 4:33 pm, "Morgans" wrote:

I would think that an engine loss would have made a noticeable
difference
in CG, no?
--
Jim in NC

Jim, here again, I cant really say. The 727 had a max landing wieght
of 154500 and the GC shfted aft during flight anyways, but it was
probably still noticable. A big problem with fuselage mounted engines
is that anything that comes off the plane went through the engines
(Ice, frost, chunks of tire etc). Most of the time a catastrophic tire
falure on TO would result in FODing out the 1 or 3 engine.
The AA incident was kinda interesting because it resulted from a
malfunction in the lavitory dump valve that caused blue juice to leak
down the side of the fuselage. Of course this stuff froze up at
altitude and then broke off and went through the #3 engine. The crew
handled it as a engine failure and when they got on the ground ATC
made a comment about losing the #3 engine to which they responded how
ATC would know which engine was shut down. This is when they found out
the engine had departed the aircraft.
As for MXs asertion that you can take off with two engines, he is full
of it as usual. There would not be enough directional control to do
this on most of these jets. The only jet that I know of that could be
ferried with an engine out was the DC8. This required special aircrew
training and it still resulted in a few fatal accidents.Hope this
helps.



He wasn't talking about ferrying, he was talking about a V1 cut as far
as I could see.
You can ferry a 727 with one out. My company has done it and I've seen
the Boeing paperwork for it. It's not a big deal in the 72'
You can also get some twins off on one engine from a standing start!
You just have to introduce power gradually. I've done it in a 757 sim at
210,000 off a 10,000 foot runway. I've been told that it's legal to
ferry a 757 on one engine but I have no credible confirmation of this. I
have no doubt it could be done, though. Why you would want to is beyond
me, though.
I also remember seeing an accident report involving some guy who tried
to get an Apache airborne on one. IIRC it was somewhere in Ohio. He
couldn't get the left one going due cold weather and so decided to try a
windmill start airborne.
Greatest optimist who ever lived.


Bertie


Bertie

You have heard about starting a jet fighter with another jet?

At least one time they lined a good jet just ahead of a bad jet
(F-86's as I remember) and forward bird ran it's engine up and the jet
exhaust down the intake of rear fighter spun the engine up to start
RPM and it was started and both flew away.

Some one may remember where this took place and why it had to be done
(Korea???)

They may have landed some place with no maintenance and used this
procedure to get home vs sending in a repair crew???

Big John

Big John wrote in
:

Bertie

You have heard about starting a jet fighter with another jet?


Yes, I've seen it done to a stranded 707 when no GPU was available or
likely to be before the thing corroded away.

At least one time they lined a good jet just ahead of a bad jet
(F-86's as I remember) and forward bird ran it's engine up and the jet
exhaust down the intake of rear fighter spun the engine up to start
RPM and it was started and both flew away.

Some one may remember where this took place and why it had to be done
(Korea???)

They may have landed some place with no maintenance and used this
procedure to get home vs sending in a repair crew???


Whatever gets you home!

I saw something on the history channel about a pair of F 86's in whihc one
guy pushed the other over back to friendly territory after a flameout. The
flamed-out pilot got out but drowned in his shrouds.


Bertie

F. Baum writes:

This is called a V1 cut and it is done on every sim check on every
crew for every plane flown in the world. The regs require the planes
weight to be limited so the plane can either stop on the remaining
runway if the engine fails before V1 or continue (and climout) if the
engine fails after V1.

The important point is that the aircraft still took off successfully with one
engine set to idle. Therefore it can take off with only two of three engines
providing thrust.

Bob Moore writes:

Yes....BUT....that is not the same as taking off on two engines
because you have used all three to accelerate past the Vmcg speed.

Hmm ... granted. I don't know that they waited until rotation to pull back
the throttle, though (it has been many years since I read about this). The
727 supposedly had a reputation for having plenty of power to spare, at least
compared to its contemporaries.

Of course, if it is the center engine that is INOP, then of course
it can be done at a light weight and a long runway.

I don't know which engine they idled, but logically one would expect the
center engine.