Identifying the other guy

Todd Smith wrote.........
The radio is quicker and easier. The issue about miss identified.........

I'm with you 100% Todd, There was an instructor at Minden who is no
longer with us because of no radio communications. After calling for
the sailplane to close his spoilers, the tow pilot gave the signal
(rudder wag) which was mis-understood and the sailplane released at
300 feet, made a 180 degree turn and hit the wires at the end of 30.
Student severely injured and instructor later died from complications
relating to the accident. The radio should be the primary means of
communications and the tow should not be initiated without a com
check. Joe would be with us today if he had followed this procedure.
JJ

Cindy:

Although there may be lots of truth in what you say, I know that many
standard class ships are unhappy at low tow speeds. I also know the
nose of my Discus 2 is high on tow and can live with it - I just fly a
little to the side and peer round the nose.

All I can tell you is that below 70 knots when fully ballasted, I lose
enough control to be seriously worrying. At 60 knots, I have several
times dropped into low tow with full up elevator. For some reason,
reaching for the flap handle doesn't seem to help, so I yell for more
speed.

I know my ship thermals at speeds lower than that, but the handling
becomes definitely marginal at similar speeds on tow. Maybe it's the
dynamics of the tow and the angle of incidence of the wing, but this
behavior is real and not imaginary.

Mike

BB wrote:
Too-slow tows are a constant problem at contests. Not being a tow
pilot, I can only guess a the problem, but I suspect that tow pilots
used to pulling 2-33s can't seem to adjust to what happens with
heavily ballasted gliders on a hot day. The radio is full of radio
calls, wing rocking, (yes, contest pilots know the signals) and more
radio calls to no effect.

And the converse is also true. A couple of my less pleasant tows have been at
contests where the tuggie failed to compensate for the transition from the
heavies to club class unballasted ships.

The local tuggies often aim for 80, because of high density altitudes and heavy
ships - and sometimes overshoot - 160kmh (85kt) with the tug still on the ground
tends to be somewhat hectic in an unballasted Std Cirrus. (at least for the
average experience of the guys in club class - including me)


It happened to me last summer. The big problem was not "more speed" on
a well-balanced tow. My towplane simply took off for the sky while I
was still rolling on the ground! Towing a fully ballasted glider
requires the towplane to gain speed while low, and make sure the
glider has taken off before climbing. The contest rules say 70 mph,
and that means gain speed to 70 while still in ground effect.

Most hilarious radio exchange: Lubbock, standard class nationals. Full
water, slight cross and downwind. The same towplane is always too
slow. "Towplane X, 70 mph please. ...(no answer) TOWPLANE X, MORE
SPEED (no answer) .... TOWPLANE X, I NEED MORE SPEED NOW!" (pause)
"all right, all right, ... but what do y'all want to fly so fast for
anyhow?"

Of course many seasoned contest tow pilots provide excellent and
dedicated servce, for little reward, and we're very thankful for
them.

John Cochrane

JJ Sinclair wrote:
Todd Smith wrote.........
The radio is quicker and easier. The issue about miss identified.........

I'm with you 100% Todd, There was an instructor at Minden who is no
longer with us because of no radio communications. After calling for
the sailplane to close his spoilers, the tow pilot gave the signal
(rudder wag) which was mis-understood and the sailplane released at
300 feet, made a 180 degree turn and hit the wires at the end of 30.
Student severely injured and instructor later died from complications
relating to the accident. The radio should be the primary means of
communications and the tow should not be initiated without a com
check. Joe would be with us today if he had followed this procedure.
JJ

Same mistake occurred at Lone Pine a few years ago with fatal results.
I wonder if the tow plane rudder waggle signal has caused more harm than
good over the years.

Greg Arnold wrote:
JJ Sinclair wrote:
Todd Smith wrote.........
The radio is quicker and easier. The issue about miss
identified.........

I'm with you 100% Todd, There was an instructor at Minden who is no
longer with us because of no radio communications. After calling for
the sailplane to close his spoilers, the tow pilot gave the signal
(rudder wag) which was mis-understood and the sailplane released at
300 feet, made a 180 degree turn and hit the wires at the end of 30.
Student severely injured and instructor later died from complications
relating to the accident. The radio should be the primary means of
communications and the tow should not be initiated without a com
check. Joe would be with us today if he had followed this procedure.
JJ

Same mistake occurred at Lone Pine a few years ago with fatal results. I
wonder if the tow plane rudder waggle signal has caused more harm than
good over the years.

I'll admit that the one time someone used the rudder waggle on me, I
released immediately. The problem became clear once I was no longer
connected to the rope. The tow pilot was experienced enough to know
what was likely to happen, so he waited until he was back over the
runway before signaling (no radio in the tow plane).

I'm not 100% certain I'd get it right the next time, the tow plane is
obviously having trouble climbing, my subconscious is anticipating a
wave off, so any signal may suffice...

Marc

In article
s.com, Andy writes
On Nov 16, 7:47 am, Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:

By the way, if you disagree with the effectiveness of the current
signal to speed up (Hint: "Rock & Roll"), volunteer to chair a
committee to change it.
At most contest I've been to, the tow speed is agreed by the tow pilot
and the glider pilot by being set at the mandatory pilot meeting.
True, the first day usually finds some of the less experienced tow
pilots flying slow, but there should never be a need for all pilots to
request a tow speed prior to launch. The frequency must be kept clear
to safety calls.

Andy

But if the combination is going too slow a call to request a speed up IS
a safety call.
--
Mike Lindsay

"all right, all right, ... but what do y'all want to fly so fast for
anyhow?"

Of course many seasoned contest tow pilots provide excellent and
dedicated servce, for little reward, and we're very thankful for
them.

On thread -- I encourage labeling all vehicles largely on multiple
surfaces in contest environments.
Then -- dangling from the thread....


Oh, how I laugh. It must be about time that the list of ranked
pilots is now jonesing for a contest.... in the northern hemisphere
(specifically USA) , at least.

Thanks for publicly thanking tow pilots.

For starters, 70 mph is 60.8 knots
(or 112 kph for the entertained Continental pilots avoiding this
rant).
BB says 70 mph is the rule, so I won't go check the units of measure.
70 mph would do for me.
A wet glider won't stall at 60.8 knots in under 30 degrees
(aerotowing)
bank angle in moderately convective flight conditions, without some
other provocation. I do believe most of you will spend hours of the
day
thermalling at or less than that same 60 knots, wet, at significantly
more
bank angle than you used while being towed. Have you managed to
leave your flaps forward from that moment of initial roll, when you
wanted
that enhanced aileron effectiveness?

So why do those repetitive radio pleas for speed recur?

Simply, that the glider pilot is used to spending his day looking at
the horizon line with his nose BELOW the reference, and when he spends
a scant five to seven minutes with his nose above the horizon, his
little
peasized hypothalamus is screaming to "normalize" things. Especially
since he is aleady adrenalined up, with anticipation of fear or reward
in the midst of his peers. Let's holler at the only socially
acceptable
outlet, the towpilot.
Or, if we really don't like the picture, draw on some more positive
flap
to change lift and the forward view.

I didn't say this was rational, in fact, I strongly believe it is an
emotional moment. Truly, that heavy, draggy towplane has a seriously
higher stall speed than your glider has, and if he is flying, you are/
can
be flying. (Unless you happen to be blessed with a Cessna Wren
conversion or something else particularly tug exotic.) I heard tales
of climbing behind the Italian turbine Bird Dog at Uvalde years ago.
Speed was fine,
but the climb rate and pitch attitude had eyeballs rolling.

I often require pilots in field checks or flight reviews to make the
tug slow to 50 knots with signals (not radios). Most folks whine
and wallow, when they are learning how much pitch change that
requires from them to hold level position behind the tug.
Then they must use the speed-up(down?) signal to get back to
"regular" speed.

Since so few US operations require the use of signals in initial
training, flight tests, or recurrent training, few towpilots keep
sharp
on them, and become lazy/complacent in monitoring the
customer. Few glider pilots will practice them voluntarily.
And yet, what else improves airmanship during those available
minutes behind the tug?

Burt's post implies there are a potload of signals to remember
(eighteen).
But while airborn, there are only seven.
And only four originate from the glider pilot, three from the tug.

I'd bet everyone reading here can tell me the three hand signals
for use bicycling or driving antiques in road traffic. And you used
those how recently? Why can't we get glider folks to practice,
remember and use something which is so frequently relevant?
I want my customers to be "in command" of their towing
experience, both in heading and speed, and encourage visual signals
to the tug. Radios are helpful, but don't need to be the primary
form
of "convenience" communication, to save bandwidth for urgent calls,
or to be polite in a high traffic environment.

And, what do you want to fly so fast for anyway?
I know a towpilot who responds to the ground discussion later,
"You can tow fast or climb fast, which one do you want?"
Because the call after speeding up was frequently, "Can't you get
me to those guys any quicker?"

My favorite tow speed call from years ago was a complaint . . .

"That Pawnee is towing me at ninety knots. Slow down !!!!"
When asked later, the glider pilot told me that yes, they were
climbing at the time. I withdrew from the discussion at that moment,
knowing that those two factors were in complete opposition
to each other and not possible in reality. It was a 235 Pawnee
and a wet Open Class glider. I just told him I would "talk"
to the tow pilot.

Discuss, think, learn, practice.
Fly with a CFI every spring, and ask to really work on
something. Don't take the easy way out; improve.

Safe soaring,

Cindy B

www.caracolesoaring.com[/quote][/i][/color]

Nice, Ms B, I love a good rant.

Here in Oz, we low tow.

This improves the feel of a nose high attitude in a full slippery ship, you are always just below the slipstream, getting it slightly wrong only gets you further down, not further in trouble.

The towplane is always fully in the canopy, easy to see.
Tug upsets are minimised, the tuggie will let you know fairly smartly if he runs out of down elevator, but even so, he will not be greatly alarmed.
Run him out of up elevator and there is trouble, almost instantly.

Your notation that the tug will stall before the glider is pertinant, it follows that the problem is usually one of sensation rather than actual danger, although I welcome being corrected on this.

When the tug is always above you, you feel like you are being pulled up, as opposed to flying behind it.

Perhaps Hartley or some of the other posters have tried both and can add?

Bagger

it.

Perhaps Hartley or some of the other posters have tried both and can
add?

Bagger


Here in the USA, they not only fly high tow, but require the glider to
make a right turn off release. Why do they do everything backwards?
They even drive on the wrong side of the road here!

Anyway.....

They also fly low tow in South Africa where I did all my early flying
and I have to say I have always preferred it. There are just too many
accidents where the glider gets too high on tow and the towplane can't
recover, which is much less likely to occur on low tow.

Having said that, I prefer to be in low tow of my own volition and not
because I am so slow that I have lost elevator control. Below 65
knots, my fully-ballasted Discus 2 gets very wallowy and at 60 is
unable to maintain high tow.

As others have said, it's essential that the towplane and glider pilot
agree on speed, signals and maneuvers. I wouldn't want to be towed
too fast in a lightweight fragile wooden ship just as much as I hate
slow tows in fast glass.

Mike

www.caracolesoaring.com

Nice, Ms B, I love a good rant.

Here in Oz, we low tow.

This improves the feel of a nose high attitude in a full slippery ship,
you are always just below the slipstream, getting it slightly wrong only
gets you further down, not further in trouble.

The towplane is always fully in the canopy, easy to see.
Tug upsets are minimised, the tuggie will let you know fairly smartly if
he runs out of down elevator, but even so, he will not be greatly
alarmed.
Run him out of up elevator and there is trouble, almost instantly.

Your notation that the tug will stall before the glider is pertinant, it
follows that the problem is usually one of sensation rather than actual
danger, although I welcome being corrected on this.

When the tug is always above you, you feel like you are being pulled up,
as opposed to flying behind it.

Perhaps Hartley or some of the other posters have tried both and can
add?

Bagger




--
bagmaker[/i][/color]


I have flown low tow in our trainiing gliders and tried it on aerotow
retrieves. I have not tried it fully ballasted. I didn't like the rope
rubbing on the fuselage from the CG hook (no nose hook installed), and
really didn't find it less fatiguing. So, except to teach that it can be
done, I don't use it.

I agree that we fly just fine in thermals at a slower speed, and that a
Pawnee will stall before the glider. Therefore there must be some other
factor in the equation that we are not considering. My suspicion is that the
glider on tow is flying in disturbed air behind the towplane. This causes
the controls to be less effective. Perhaps laminar flow cannot be
established. Perhaps an Aerodynamicist could help us out here. In any event
the phenomenon is real, for sure.

Hartley Falbaum
USA "KF"

I agree that we fly just fine in thermals at a slower speed, and that a
Pawnee will stall before the glider. Therefore there must be some other
factor in the equation that we are not considering. My suspicion is that the
glider on tow is flying in disturbed air behind the towplane. This causes
the controls to be less effective. Perhaps laminar flow cannot be
established. Perhaps an Aerodynamicist could help us out here. In any event
the phenomenon is real, for sure.

Hartley Falbaum
USA "KF"


Yes, it's real. I also find it when I am in clean air out of the
towplane wake.

I suspect non-flapped modern racing sailplanes like the LS-8, ASW-28
and Discus 2 have a low angle of incidence of the wing that requires a
nose-up attitude to maintain the proper angle of attack at low
speeds. When in high tow with a nosehook, the towline exerts a
downward force that reduces the angle of attack. To maintain stable
flight in such conditions requires more speed.

Mike