Multi time building Q

On Dec 10, 8:28 pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Sure but the idea that a safety pilot who is serving as PIC can log
PIC is very well established by the FAA Chief Council opinions, the
Lynch FAQ etc. Its not one of those "kindas" its well established.

Let me apologize up front here Rob because I might split some hairs on
this one. First, the Safety doesnt serve as PIC. Second, I think this
is one of those questions where it depends which Fed you ask.
Generally (Real Generally) the FAA likes to see one PIC . There are
exeptions to this of course, but someone serving as SIC shouldnt be
logging PIC. A good example of this happens at airlines. Most airlines
type their FOs these days. So if it is the FO's leg (Sole manipulator)
and he is typed, he still cannot log PIC because the certificate
holder has to designate a PIC and SIC for the flight.Like I posted
earlier, I have seen this , and several other flight logging issues
argued but the Feds recognize one PIC. All of this is mute to me
because I dont log much of my flight time anymore, But I am trying to
keep the OP out of trouble.

BTW: There is no FAR that allows you to log the flight just because
you are the PIC, so it can go both ways. Logging PIC is totally
different than serving as PIC.

Exactly.

-Robert, CFII

"F. Baum" wrote in news:17a49ca5-905f-4aba-bd0c-
:

Generally (Real Generally) the FAA likes to see one PIC . There are
exeptions to this of course, but someone serving as SIC shouldnt be
logging PIC.

I disagree. The safety pilot thing has already been mentioned. Instruction
of someone rated in the aircraft (maybe for a higher rating, maybe not) is
another. You are a CFII according to your post. When you were giving
instrument instruction, did you log it as PIC? Did your student?
That's a pretty common situation. If you meant really, really, really,
really generally, then ok.

Hey, like the girls from Motown ued to sing, if you don't like what a
FSDO says, "You gotta shop around'

Remember, they are little fiefdoms..

denny

On Dec 10, 11:59 pm, Jackal24 wrote:

I disagree. The safety pilot thing has already been mentioned. Instruction
of someone rated in the aircraft (maybe for a higher rating, maybe not) is
another. You are a CFII according to your post. When you were giving
instrument instruction, did you log it as PIC? Did your student?
That's a pretty common situation. If you meant really, really, really,
really generally, then ok.
The CFII was the other guy. I think we are blurring an important
distiction here because Robert posted that the Safety Pilot can log
the time that he is acting as PIC. This is correct, but he cannot log
PIC for the time he is not functioning as PIC. The FAA has made this
determination , not me . If any of these cheap Multi outfits tell
you otherwise, they are not truthfull. This is how the interpritaion
from the LGB FSDO came about (In writing). I will readily admit that
the FAA has a hard time consistintly interpriting thier own regs, so
you may find a FSDO that may say otherwise
I would occasionally serve on the interview board at my old airline.
As part of the screening process we would have a panel of three pilots
who would screen apllicants (In addition to a sim ride and a written
test). Part of the panel discusion involved a reveiw of an applicants
logbooks. All of the panelists got pretty good at spotting the suspect
flight time from these cheap multi outfits , and others like the
weekend type rating places (You would even recocnize N numbers after
awhile). Of course this would always come up during the interview. The
honest canidates (the ones who would recieve further consideration)
would tell us what they logged, The dishonest applicants (The ones who
got sent home) would maintain that you could have 2 or more people
logging PIC for the same flight. We screened knucleheads who would log
PIC in the 737 they rode in to get to the interview because they were
typed. So put whatever you want to in your logbook, but dont think
that you are fooling anyone.
FB

On Dec 11, 6:17 am, "F. Baum" wrote:
On Dec 10, 11:59 pm, Jackal24 wrote:

I disagree. The safety pilot thing has already been mentioned. Instruction
of someone rated in the aircraft (maybe for a higher rating, maybe not) is
another. You are a CFII according to your post. When you were giving
instrument instruction, did you log it as PIC? Did your student?
That's a pretty common situation. If you meant really, really, really,
really generally, then ok.

The CFII was the other guy. I think we are blurring an important
distiction here because Robert posted that the Safety Pilot can log
the time that he is acting as PIC. This is correct, but he cannot log
PIC for the time he is not functioning as PIC.

I never said otherwise. However, to understand this discussion you
must mentally separate logging PIC from servings as PIC, the two are
the not same. The well understood method of both pilots logging PIC
(that the Chief Council approves of is)..
Guy #1 flys the plane. He logs PIC because he is the sole manipulator
of the controls (very, very clear in 61.51(e)(1)(i). This pilot is
under the hood.
Guy #2 serves as safety pilot and PIC. He logs PIC under 61.51(e)(1)
(iii) and doesn't touch the controls. Both log PIC.

This is the method the FAA suggests for both pilots to log PIC.

Another method is for one rated pilot to have his hand on the controls
(61.51(e)1(i)) and the other pilots (MEI) to provide instruction
(61.51(e)(3)). Both are suppose to log PIC.


Please note that logging PIC is regulatated by 61.51(e).

-Robert, CFII

On Dec 11, 10:49 am, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:


I never said otherwise. However, to understand this discussion you
must mentally separate logging PIC from servings as PIC, the two are
the not same. The well understood method of both pilots logging PIC
(that the Chief Council approves of is)..
Guy #1 flys the plane. He logs PIC because he is the sole manipulator
of the controls (very, very clear in 61.51(e)(1)(i). This pilot is
under the hood.
Guy #2 serves as safety pilot and PIC. He logs PIC under 61.51(e)(1)
(iii) and doesn't touch the controls. Both log PIC.

This is the method the FAA suggests for both pilots to log PIC.


OK Rob, here is what I got from the FAA. Ill use quotation marks where
my FSDO budy is talking although it is not entirely verbatim. "This
question has come up alot with an entire cottage industry of multi
engine time building schools trying to exploit a percieved loophole in
the regs. The operation of a light twin does not require two
crewmembers so unless one pilot who is rated and current is recieving
instruction, only one pilot can log PIC. If the PIC uses a view
limiting device he must have a rated safety pilot. This pilot can log
time as a safety pilot for the time that the PIC is under the hood. It
is concevable that he could log SIC time because the operation reqires
two pilots". Robert ask yourself this, if this situation doesnt work
at an airline (Where the situation is much more clearly defined), why
would it work for GA ?
I think this is along the lines of your 50 hours of multi rule.

Please note that logging PIC is regulatated by 61.51(e).

-Robert, CFII

On Dec 11, 6:17 am, "F. Baum" wrote:

The dishonest applicants (The ones who
got sent home) would maintain that you could have 2 or more people
logging PIC for the same flight.

As would I because the FAA has said you can over and over again. As a
CFII I would never hire a CFI who did not understand that both the CFI
and the rated student *SHOULD* be logging PIC at the same time. If you
do not log your rated student's flights as PIC when you fly with them
you are doing them a disservice and are not understanding the rules.

My guess it that you misunderstood what the local FSDO wrote. I would
suggest you post it here. If it really does say what you are saying
I'll take it to the FAA and have them reverse it.

-Robert, CFII

On Dec 11, 10:53 am, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Dec 11, 6:17 am, "F. Baum" wrote:

As a
CFII I would never hire a CFI who did not understand that both the CFI
and the rated student *SHOULD* be logging PIC at the same time. If you
do not log your rated student's flights as PIC when you fly with them
you are doing them a disservice and are not understanding the rules.

This is not what is being disputed. Furthermore, the airlines frown on
this practice too. I havent filled out an app in awhile but I recall
the last ones I did fill out ask for time that I was "soley resposible
for the operation of the aircraft" . Maybe the feds could clear things
up a bit with verbage similar to this.

My guess it that you misunderstood what the local FSDO wrote. I would
suggest you post it here. If it really does say what you are saying
I'll take it to the FAA and have them reverse it.
That was a long time ago and I never had a copy of it. I doubt the FAA
would suport the logging of PIC by anyone other than the PIC.

-Robert, CFII

Does that mean if Fred (rated pilot) goes flying with me and we both
watch for traffic and he follows the GPS on a nav chart, I cannot log
PIC because I was not 'soley' responsible for the operation of the
aircraft?


denny - inquiring mind, and all that

Denny wrote:
Does that mean if Fred (rated pilot) goes flying with me and we both
watch for traffic and he follows the GPS on a nav chart, I cannot log
PIC because I was not 'soley' responsible for the operation of the
aircraft?


denny - inquiring mind, and all that

No it means that he can't.