Las Vegas NV Cortez 1 VFR Arrival/Class B Airspace

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On Dec 22, 2:25 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Then you must believe you must also hear the "magic words" when operating
IFR.


Nope. I am cleared from point A to point B unless otherwise advised
by ATC when picking up my clearance. That don't exist under VFR.


What are you basing that on? Why do you make a distinction between VFR and
IFR operations while the entry requirements found in FAR 91.131 do not?

And how are you coming with that search for the "magic words"?

wrote:
On Dec 22, 2:25?pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Then you must believe you must also hear the "magic words" when operating
IFR.

Nope. I am cleared from point A to point B unless otherwise advised
by ATC when picking up my clearance. That don't exist under VFR.

Nope. VFR transition routes do exactly that.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Dec 22, 3:05*pm, wrote:

Nope. VFR transition routes do exactly that.

THANK YOU! Makes more sense now that you put it this way.

Allen

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

And how are you coming with that search for the "magic words"?

Hey, you go ahead and fly into Bravo without hearing those magic
words. No skin off my back.

Like I said, I will be listening for those words, and if I dont' get
them I will ask. I require it in my flying, you can do what you want.

You don't stick to standard phraseology, then shame on you.

'nuf said.

Allen

wrote in message
...

Hey, you go ahead and fly into Bravo without hearing those magic
words. No skin off my back.

Like I said, I will be listening for those words, and if I dont' get
them I will ask. I require it in my flying, you can do what you want.

You don't stick to standard phraseology, then shame on you.

'nuf said.


If you've already received a clearance that grants entry into Class B
airspace those words are superfluous. Doesn't make any difference if you're
VFR or IFR.

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:04:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote in
:

On Dec 22, 12:05*pm, wrote:

The floor of the class B between Lava Butte and the Spaghetti Bowl is
at the surface.

Look at the Las Vegas TAC.

I don't have the TAC readily available, so I will go at your word Jim,

You'll find a chart he http://skyvector.com/#31-17-3-2924-3523

but before even getting to the VFR arrival procedures, you still have
to get cleared into Bravo.

The arrival procedures are only directions to take, arrival procedures
are not airspace rules. Two very distinct issues (and clearances).

Okay. However IFR Standard Terminal Arrivals usually come with a
clearance. I found the IFR procedure plates he
http://flightaware.com/resources/air...AS/ALL/all/pdf but I
haven't been able to find the VFR procedures, have you?

You can't be cleared into Bravo without hearing those magic words ["cleard into Class Bravo airspace"].

Surely there are phraseologies for clearances into Class Bravo
airspace than "cleared into Class Bravo airspace".

Implied clearance (and that is what you are doing when not
specifically saying cleared into bravo[)] causes confusion as just in
this thread and like I said, I wouldn't put my ticket on Steven's
position.

Perhaps.

The phraseology is very clear that I posted from Larry's reference.
There is nothing in the phraseology (I KNOW it's not regulatory) that
shows that a clearance to an arrival procedure is a clearance into ANY
airpsace.

Allen


I think the confusion in this thread is a result of not knowing what
ATC actually said. Perhaps Mr. Lee could provide that. Did ATC say,
"Cleared for the Cortez 1 VFR arrival? Did ATC say "cleared" at all?

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:20:21 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
:


wrote in message
...

Hey, you go ahead and fly into Bravo without hearing those magic
words. No skin off my back.

Like I said, I will be listening for those words, and if I dont' get
them I will ask. I require it in my flying, you can do what you want.

You don't stick to standard phraseology, then shame on you.

'nuf said.


If you've already received a clearance that grants entry into Class B
airspace those words are superfluous. Doesn't make any difference if you're
VFR or IFR.


I believe the point here is, that it's incumbent on the VFR PIC to
explicitly _REQUEST_ clearance into Class B airspace every time
(instead of saying "with you" or some such):

"Las Vegas Approach, Cherokee 1234 request clearance into Class
Bravo via the Cortez 1 Transition."

Then it would be clear that any violation caused by the controller's
omission of the "cleared into Class Bravo" phrase was not the fault of
the pilot.

You'll find a chart hehttp://skyvector.com/#31-17-3-2924-3523

Thanks!

flightaware.com/resources/airport/KLAS/ALL/all/pdfbut I
haven't been able to find the VFR procedures, have you?

http://skyvector.com/#31-17-3-2924-3523 (thanks to you!) You will
need to scroll left to view the legend.

Surely there are phraseologies for clearances into Class Bravo
airspace than "cleared into Class Bravo airspace".

Dunno myself as my two experiecnes with Bravo was IFR handling. It
was just beaten in my head, one must be cleared into Bravo when VFR,
and how else would you get that "clearance" and acknowledgement?

I think the confusion in this thread is a result of not knowing what
ATC actually said. *Perhaps Mr. Lee could provide that. *Did ATC say,
"Cleared for the Cortez 1 VFR arrival? *Did ATC say "cleared" at all?

That is true, but my contention would be for any VFR flight into
Bravo. I initally took it as a "IFR STAR" that Ron was using, but Jim
was nice enought to clear that up as a VFR transition (I know the
subject line did say VFR arrival).

Allen

On Dec 22, 5:57*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:

I believe the point here is, that it's incumbent on the VFR PIC to
explicitly _REQUEST_ clearance into Class B airspace every time
(instead of saying "with you" or some such):

* * "Las Vegas Approach, Cherokee 1234 request clearance into Class
* * *Bravo via the Cortez 1 Transition." *

Then it would be clear that any violation caused by the controller's
omission of the "cleared into Class Bravo" phrase was not the fault of
the pilot. *

Thank you Larry,

Somewhere along the line, the clearance into Bravo airspace needs to
be heard, and this is what I have been saying all along.

You just worded it better MUCH then me. :-)

Pilot requests clearance, ATC approves by sayind cleared into Bravo or
remain clear. Those are the only two choices THAT I see ATC having
when one is around Bravo airspace.

It is incumbent on the pilot to request it as you so well stated.

You can bet if I ever go VFR, I will hear those words "cleared into
Bravo" before I set a wing inside that airspace.

Allen

I am happy with this answer now. Another VFR pilot who was cleared on
the Cortez 1 transition route a month ago asked if he was cleared to
enter Class B (as I probably would have). He was chided by the
controller that he had already been cleared for the Cortez 1 arrival.

Thus I am confident that approval by ATC to fly the Cortez 1
transition route also carries with it approval to enter Class B
airspace.

Ron Lee